Junior football, what is the future?

[archieb]

1 hour ago, energyzone said:

Since this emailed proposal was sent from BSC Glasgow to an number of junior clubs, have any of the clubs identified themselves or entered any discussions with fans regarding the idea?

Whatever clubs this mythical email was sent to, Pollok wasn't one of them.

A strange omission, I'd have thought?

[FairWeatherFan]

23 minutes ago, RabidAl said:

So there's no technical issue that would be a barrier to a WoSFL being established at tier 6 (and below)? 

It would just be a case of BSC obtaining the signatures of interested clubs/stakeholders from the LL and juniors, then taking them to the SFA and saying that they want a division/league at tier 6 of the pyramid that they can be promoted from/relegated to that is closer to them in terms of geography and quality of football than the SoSFL, which is too distant and is all-but-amateur? 

Hope it happens before any of the big boys' colt teams or any non-club clubs emerge to fill the lacuna.   

I'd say that's how it would go about getting started, but it would go through the Lowland League rather than the SFA. Admittedly they're kind of them same thing but I think it would come down to the 16 member clubs in the league that year to get the vote passed.

[Goalie Hamish]

41 minutes ago, archieb said:

Whatever clubs this mythical email was sent to, Pollok wasn't one of them.

A strange omission, I'd have thought?

Maybe someone can post it here

[Nikos K]

Or maybe the powers in charge at pollok don't want the fans or committee to know about it because they are happy where they are . Email was definitely sent out nothing mythical about it . 

[FairWeatherFan]

Maybe double check their Junk Email.

[newcastle broon]

3 hours ago, energyzone said:

Since this emailed proposal was sent from BSC Glasgow to an number of junior clubs, have any of the clubs identified themselves or entered any discussions with fans regarding the idea?

Has this proposal from BSC been posted anywhere?  

Very very interesting (if true) the club with nil fan base  that nobody wanted and nearly every junior fan hated are now potentially rejuvenating Scottish fitba 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 hours ago, archieb said:

Whatever clubs this mythical email was sent to, Pollok wasn't one of them.

A strange omission, I'd have thought?

Check your junk,

[RabidAl]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'd say that's how it would go about getting started, but it would go through the Lowland League rather than the SFA. Admittedly they're kind of them same thing but I think it would come down to the 16 member clubs in the league that year to get the vote passed.

Really?  It's a little surprising that clubs in the LL would have the final say, but that needn't scupper a WoSFL proposal I suppose.

As most of the LL clubs aren't going anywhere (with so limited an opportunity to be promoted), it'd seem to be in the rational self-interest of their clubs to vote through any proposal that would bring them more revenue in the form of clubs with larger fan bases coming into the league and the greater sponsorship revenue that goes along with a stronger league; it would certainly be in the interests of LL west clubs to have a WoSFL with well-supported local clubs to be relegated into. 

I would think that the stronger the lowland league, the higher chance there is of SPFL clubs being relaxed about greater promotion and relegation between league and non-league.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, RabidAl said:

Really?  It's a little surprising that clubs in the LL would have the final say, but that needn't scupper a WoSFL proposal I suppose.

As most of the LL clubs aren't going anywhere (with so limited an opportunity to be promoted), it'd seem to be in the rational self-interest of their clubs to vote through any proposal that would bring them more revenue in the form of clubs with larger fan bases coming into the league and the greater sponsorship revenue that goes along with a stronger league; it would certainly be in the interests of LL west clubs to have a WoSFL with well-supported local clubs to be relegated into. 

I would think that the stronger the lowland league, the higher chance there is of SPFL clubs being relaxed about greater promotion and relegation between league and non-league.

I am of the thinking any viable WoSFL that could be put together would be added on, but you mention self interest. The argument from many of the Lowland League's detractors is that it was rushed through for the benefit of the traditional Senior clubs and I was always disappointed that the EoSFL & SoSFL were simply tacked on without consideration of the geographic inadequacy of it.

It can easily be argued that the Lowland League has its West of Scotland feeder in the form of the SoSFL, of which clubs are free to join. Why would they need another one?

[clash city rocker]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I am of the thinking any viable WoSFL that could be put together would be added on, but you mention self interest. The argument from many of the Lowland League's detractors is that it was rushed through for the benefit of the traditional Senior clubs and I was always disappointed that the EoSFL & SoSFL were simply tacked on without consideration of the geographic inadequacy of it.

It can easily be argued that the Lowland League has its West of Scotland feeder in the form of the SoSFL, of which clubs are free to join. Why would they need another one?

The SoSFL is a complete load of shite even BSC understand that they don't ever want to even contemplate being relegated into it. If the juniors are to be involved in any way it won't be through joining the set up as is now. The West Junior Super League is well superior to SoSFL ,.. they should tag onto bottom of West Region juniors , the fifth division.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

The SoSFL is a complete load of shite even BSC understand that they don't ever want to even contemplate being relegated into it. If the juniors are to be involved in any way it won't be through joining the set up as is now. The West Junior Super League is well superior to SoSFL ,.. they should tag onto bottom of West Region juniors , the fifth division.

Of the current 16 Lowland League clubs there's only really 6 that would ever have to play in the SoSFL = East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, BSC, Dalbeattie Star, Gretna 2008 & Edusport.

Only 3 of them (East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts & BSC) have to worry about playing in the SoSFL while hailing from what is considered the West of Scotland.

The status quo could therefore be argued to suit 13/16 clubs and any vote would be in their hands. Status quo being "Clubs are more than happy to join the pyramid in the form of our West of Scotland & East of Scotland feeders, the SoSFL & EoSFL.

EDIT: Just remembered the bit about Juniors not being involved in the current pyramid as it stands. With Kelty Hearts having joined the EoSFL the dam has already been broken, and any Junior club looking to get their SFA Club Licence will have to join up to the pyramid. Juniors are now involved in the pyramid. Again speaking for self interest, existing Senior clubs might well prefer the current set up instead of wholesale change that would be to their detriment.

Edited December 30, 2017 by FairWeatherFan
addition about the Juniors

[clash city rocker]

31 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Of the current 16 Lowland League clubs there's only really 6 that would ever have to play in the SoSFL = East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, BSC, Dalbeattie Star, Gretna 2008 & Edusport.

Only 3 of them (East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts & BSC) have to worry about playing in the SoSFL while hailing from what is considered the West of Scotland.

The status quo could therefore be argued to suit 13/16 clubs and any vote would be in their hands. Status quo being "Clubs are more than happy to join the pyramid in the form of our West of Scotland & East of Scotland feeders, the SoSFL & EoSFL.

EDIT: Just remembered the bit about Juniors not being involved in the current pyramid as it stands. With Kelty Hearts having joined the EoSFL the dam has already been broken, and any Junior club looking to get their SFA Club Licence will have to join up to the pyramid. Juniors are now involved in the pyramid. Again speaking for self interest, existing Senior clubs might well prefer the current set up instead of wholesale change that would be to their detriment.

Junior clubs from the East being in close proximity to EoSFL will always find it relatively easy to cross. Ormiston did it years back. It makes you wonder though if the pyramid is so enticing why have only Kelty moved. Personally not against my club joining the pyramid but as it stands for West clubs just now there is absolutely no chance of that happening. My club issued fans with a leaflet explaining and asking them to tick the box whether they wished to join the West/East SuperLeague proposal a few season's back. The fans voted no. Nothing  whatsoever has ever been mentioned about joing any pyramid. If there ever is any new pyramid proposed that includes the juniors it's my opinion that fans will not be for it. In my opinion only the SFA instigating a REAL pyramid would force the juniors to join. Clydebank are in different situation having already been senior but people say there will soon be a swarm of clubs leaving the juniors I dunno honestly just can't see it , next couple season's will be interesting for sure.

[LongTimeLurker]

There was a newspaper article a few months back that I am currently unable to find that claimed there was a plan to start a new ten club League 3 with four colt teams and the top HL and LL clubs that would have automtic pro/rel to League 2 and that the bottom club in that new division would have the playoff game with the HL and LL champions. Find it hard to believe that a club like BSC Glasgow are doing something on a WoS League in isolation that is not tied into other moves that are already underway at the moment on league restructuring given they would stand to benefit from that type of restructure of tier 5 of the senior grade's pyramid.  

Edited December 30, 2017 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There was a newspaper article a few months back that I am currently unable to find that claimed there was a plan to start a new ten club League 3 with four colt teams and that the top HL and LL clubs that would have automtic pro/rel to League 2 and that the bottom club in that new division would have the playoff game with the HL and LL champions. Find it hard to believe that a club like BSC Glasgow are doing something on a WoS League in isolation that is not tied into other moves that are already underway at the moment on league restructuring given they would stand to benefit from that type of restructure of tier 5 of the senior grade's pyramid.  

I'm sure i've seen something similar. It's a horrible idea as far as i'm concerned and worryingly one that I could see happen. The SPFL powerbrokers only care about getting the Colt teams in the set up and the smaller clubs want to retain their status as National League clubs.

Year One would be an abomination but the obvious hope by those pursuing this is that the Colt teams would rise up the divisions. So League Three could look like Berwick Rangers, Clyde, Edinburgh City, Cowdenbeath, Cove Rangers, Inverurie Loco Works, Fraserburgh, BSC Glasgow, Spartans & East Kilbride one day. That's not too different from current League Two.

I think there's enough votes in the SPFL for that to happen. Full time sides are likely to be unaffected and benefit from Colt teams, Smaller sides get to stay as SPFL members rather than face a drop in to the Regional Leagues and relative obscurity.

[RabidAl]

A national fifth tier, with colts teams, without juniors, is a truly depressing prospect.

There is an article here about East Kilbride being keen on colts teams being introduced to the LL (and HL) from next season; the colts teams would be able to be promoted as far as League One; EK's rationale for welcoming colts sides to the LL - despite it possibly being detrimental to their prospects of promotion to the SPFL - is that their addition would draw attention to the LL, draw bigger attendances, and make the league more competitive: all of which would also be arguments, in self interest, for welcoming the top juniors sides to a regionalised LL. (I take it any addition of teams would result in a LL west and LL east.)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/east-kilbride-fc-back-celtic-10616325

The article does say that discussions were at an early stage and was written in June, so perhaps BSCG's more recent proposal does tie in here. 

So would it be a WoSFL at tier 6 without colts teams, or a LL west at tier 5 with colts teams, or are we really looking at another national league at the 5th level? 

[LongTimeLurker]

5 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm sure i've seen something similar. It's a horrible idea as far as i'm concerned and worryingly one that I could see happen. The SPFL powerbrokers only care about getting the Colt teams in the set up and the smaller clubs want to retain their status as National League clubs....

Think the powerbrokers would have two major problems. Firstly persuading the HL to move away from its current 18 team format and potentially include colt teams from Perth and Dundee, and secondly persuading the smaller full-time clubs in the west of Scotland that the SoS league is where their U-20 development side belongs. The moves by BSC Glasgow would help to address the second issue with potential entry into the new League 3 being their true unstated motivation.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think the powerbrokers would have two major problems. Firstly persuading the HL to move away from its current 18 team format and potentially include colt teams from Perth and Dundee, and secondly persuading the smaller full-time clubs in the west of Scotland that the SoS league is where their U-20 development side belongs. The moves by BSC Glasgow would help to address the second issue with potential entry into the new League 3 being their true unstated motivation.

It's quite possible that the SPFL just present their League Three vision as a fait accompli. Then ask certain clubs to resign their existing league memberships and take up these new shiny SPFL ones. I doubt any club asked to join would say no given the opportunity, and they'd just leave their current leagues to deal with the mess. This has never been a problem in the past with clubs moving to the SFL, so it would come down to the agreement over promotion/relegation between the SPFL, Highland & Lowland to provide a stumbling block.

For those SPFL clubs also wanting to run a colt team in the pyramid there would be 4x vacancies in the inaugral League Three, plus 6x possible vacancies in the Highland/Lowland depending on how they organise themselves.  With those 10x vacancies to go for initially i doubt any colt team minded SPFL side would even think of the SoSFL.

[RabidAl]

That all sounds like pure speculation.

From what little I can gather*, due to cost it's only Rangers, Celtic and possibly Aberdeen and Hibernian who have expressed an interest in having colts teams in the HL or LL, whilst the rest will enter teams in the reserve league that begins in 2018-19 as a replacement for the development league.   

My guess is that the implication of that level of interest would not be inaugurating a national League Three but, rather, regionalising the Lowland League (and adding a second level to the HL) due to the increased number of teams - which is a little nearer to the proposal that BSCG are said to have made.  

* http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-colt-teams-free-10598516

Time will tell.

[FairWeatherFan]

It's all pure speculation with only titbits of public facts.

There's a SPFL Working Group not for the pyramid, but for the introduction of colt teams as a means of youth development.  All of the quotes mention possibly starting in the Highland/Lowland League. Funnily enough neither league is within the SPFL and both are at capacity.

There's a SJFA Pyramid Working Group. While they do whatever it is they do, the West & East Regions will go about restructuring their leagues for next season.

There's BSC Glasgow doing their own thing, although no one here has been able to replicate the wording of the email & someone here has said Pollok hasn't received it.

It'd be nice if they could all get in a room together and thrash things out. Maybe they are out of the public eye, which is why all we've got is speculation.

[parkcircus]