Junior football, what is the future?

[theshed]

Well there you go, compare that to the Scottish Junior Cup where we travelled to Aberdeen East End in the second round.
The host club (not the SJFA) had to pay us half the gate or the guarantee (I think £220), whichever was the greater, given there was only about 50 there then it was the guarantee. The bus cost a lot more than £220, and of course there is no prize money and the SJFA in fact take a cut of the gate!
Both East End and ourselves would have made a loss on the game.  We then drew Colony Park from Inverurie at home next round, I think we just about broke even on the day but Colony Park would have had to shell out more than the guarantee for their bus.
As I said earlier, the Junior Cup is not "gigantic" to everyone, and examples like this are frequent and leads to the likes of Islavale saying no thanks.

You make good points as you usually do , a wee question though , is it blackburn you support ? Always thought it was whitburn but either or do you believe every season your club enter the Scottish cup that your team have no chance of winning it?

[Burnie_man]

52 minutes ago, theshed said:

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Well there you go, compare that to the Scottish Junior Cup where we travelled to Aberdeen East End in the second round.
The host club (not the SJFA) had to pay us half the gate or the guarantee (I think £220), whichever was the greater, given there was only about 50 there then it was the guarantee. The bus cost a lot more than £220, and of course there is no prize money and the SJFA in fact take a cut of the gate!
Both East End and ourselves would have made a loss on the game.  We then drew Colony Park from Inverurie at home next round, I think we just about broke even on the day but Colony Park would have had to shell out more than the guarantee for their bus.
As I said earlier, the Junior Cup is not "gigantic" to everyone, and examples like this are frequent and leads to the likes of Islavale saying no thanks.

You make good points as you usually do , a wee question though , is it blackburn you support ? Always thought it was whitburn but either or do you believe every season your club enter the Scottish cup that your team have no chance of winning it?

How very dare you sir!   Aye, we have no chance of winning it, our immediate goal is to get to the 5th Round for the first time in 37 years of trying.

[theshed]

How very dare you sir!   Aye, we have no chance of winning it, our immediate goal is to get to the 5th Round for the first time in 37 years of trying.

I see I fully get that whitburn are your second team , I knew you were a bit caught between both clubs hence my confusion ............... but both Blackburn and whitburn need to believe that they can win it surely though , if you don't believe in yourself nobody else will , the year largs won it we beat them 10-0 in the sectional cup at the beginning of that season , believe believe [emoji2]

[GLESGABOY]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Well you’ve done your research so you’ll know that there is a lot more funding available from the SFP as a club in the Pyramid than there is in the Juniors, which was the point I was making when asked about the benefits.

The "lot more" you refer to is questionable. It`s a capped amount of money that is only available on the basis that Clubs will  have access to funds that significantly  exceed the value of any grant available to them. For every club that has this type of liquid capital there will be another 50 who don`t.

[parsforlife]

It it far more common for grant funding to be provided as partial contribution than full contribution,  this isn't unique to junior clubs or football as a whole

[parsforlife]

12 minutes ago, theshed said:

I see I fully get that whitburn are your second team , I knew you were a bit caught between both clubs hence my confusion ............... but both Blackburn and whitburn need to believe that they can win it surely though , if you don't believe in yourself nobody else will , the year largs won it we beat them 10-0 in the sectional cup at the beginning of that season , believe believe

that is a complete contrast to your attitude to the Scottish cup

[Goalie Hamish]

So as I understand it, £20k for a new stand and the SFP will fund upto 10k if you're in the Pyramid, but only £5k if you're Junior.

A fairly significant difference if you're looking for funding to help towards costs.

EDIT: In fact its more significant if you want £40k.  They will fund upto £20k whilst still only giving Junior clubs £5k if I understand what has been said.

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Goalie Hamish

[grazza]

Surely would make sense whatever happens to retain the junior cup as the top non league tournament in Scotland.  Would be good if they invited Highland,Lowland, EOS, SOS and North Caledonian teams to take part. Perhaps in turn SFA could open access to senior cup also to more juniors and SPFL maybe look at some challenge cup involvement and scrap the colt teams & Irish and welsh clubs entering.  Basically more collaboration in cup competitions small steps to longer pyramid integration. 

[theshed]

Surely would make sense whatever happens to retain the junior cup as the top non league tournament in Scotland.  Would be good if they invited Highland,Lowland, EOS, SOS and North Caledonian teams to take part. Perhaps in turn SFA could open access to senior cup also to more juniors and SPFL maybe look at some challenge cup involvement and scrap the colt teams & Irish and welsh clubs entering.  Basically more collaboration in cup competitions small steps to longer pyramid integration. 

Good post and I like the sound of that , I honestly think that a full pyramid structure is coming and a west of Scotland league as a tier would slot in just about perfect .

[Dipple burn]

I was never a fan of the pyramid but I do believe a West of scotland Premier League on the same tier as the SOL  with the champions of each league  in a play of for the LL place kind of whets the appetite.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, grazza said:

...Basically more collaboration in cup competitions small steps to longer pyramid integration. 

Would be good, if that was really the end game, but do the existing SFA full members want 160+ junior clubs gatecrashing their party when it comes to receiving subsidies from the SFA? Why not just have the east and west superleagues hooking in as feeders to the LL and have any junior club that gets licensed and wins the league title in the LL playoff? The only reason to launch a WoS league is to keep the juniors semi-detached and blocked from pursuing club licensing and full SFA membership. I strongly suspect any WoS league is really about shoehorning colt teams in rather than having the likes of Talbot, Clydebank and Pollok gatecrashing the old EoS premier's new playpen, unfortunately.

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Would be good, if that was really the end game, but do the existing SFA full members want 160+ junior clubs gatecrashing their party when it comes to receiving subsidies from the SFA? Why not just have the east and west superleagues hooking in as feeders to the LL and have any junior club that gets licensed and wins the league title in the LL playoff? The only reason to launch a WoS league is to keep the juniors semi-detached and blocked from pursuing club licensing and full SFA membership. I strongly suspect any WoS league is really about shoehorning colt teams in rather than having the likes of Talbot, Clydebank and Pollok gatecrashing the old EoS premier's new playpen, unfortunately.

A WoSFL isn't viable without Junior involvement so they need to engage, and they will get interest.  I don't think the SFA are capable of coming up with a grand plan to keep Juniors at arms length, they just simply don't care enough about it and they know they're not going to be deluged with membership applications from Junior clubs.

[cowdenbeath]

11 hours ago, grazza said:

Surely would make sense whatever happens to retain the junior cup as the top non league tournament in Scotland.  Would be good if they invited Highland,Lowland, EOS, SOS and North Caledonian teams to take part. Perhaps in turn SFA could open access to senior cup also to more juniors and SPFL maybe look at some challenge cup involvement and scrap the colt teams & Irish and welsh clubs entering.  Basically more collaboration in cup competitions small steps to longer pyramid integration. 

Wasn't that the idea of letting junior sides into the Scottish Cup, dangled a carrot and only Kelty have took the option of moving.

[Goalie Hamish]

22 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

What are the benefits of Junior fitba remaining isolated forever?  list them.

Tell Me More must have a long list the time he is taking

[RabidAl]

Can anyone clarify the situation regarding licencing and joining the pyramid?

My understanding is that clubs don't have to be licenced in order to join the pyramid (e.g. recently, Bonnyton in the south; Tweedmouth in the east) yet, conversely, if a club does become licenced now then it is committed to joining the pyramid.  

What i'm driving at is whether there is any obstacle, in the form of licencing, to the west juniors divisions (of unlicenced clubs) slotting into the pyramid under the LL as a West of Scotland League?

11 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Would be good, if that was really the end game, but do the existing SFA full members want 160+ junior clubs gatecrashing their party when it comes to receiving subsidies from the SFA? Why not just have the east and west superleagues hooking in as feeders to the LL and have any junior club that gets licensed and wins the league title in the LL playoff? The only reason to launch a WoS league is to keep the juniors semi-detached and blocked from pursuing club licensing and full SFA membership. I strongly suspect any WoS league is really about shoehorning colt teams in rather than having the likes of Talbot, Clydebank and Pollok gatecrashing the old EoS premier's new playpen, unfortunately.

The juniors in the west region would surely be included if a new league was established in the west, as below...

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:51, LongTimeLurker said:

West region clubs are affiliated SFA members even if they are not full SFA members, so if you are trying to launch a new league under the SFA you would normally be expected to notify all potentially interested parties as happened with the Lowland League. Beyond that it's more a case of them not actually needing lots of junior clubs to be involved to potentially be able to do this than not wanting them.

...although of course it is not the SFA who are said to be involved in discussions about inaugurating a senior West of Scotland League at this stage.

I would have thought the reason for launching a WoSFL league, given that this proposal is said to originate from BSCG, is for them to have somewhere to land if they are relegated from the LL, other than a SoSFL that is not desirable to for them to enter because of quality and travel issues; these being the same reasons for clubs in the west juniors being a little shy of becoming involved in the pyramid so far. 

Surely the only reason for not launching a WoS league is to keep the juniors semi-detached, etc?  Either way, I don't believe in that conspiracy.

[tell_me_more]

1 hour ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Tell Me More must have a long list the time he is taking

I only answer sensible questions Hamish when i have time ;-) , as for being isolated do you not know that there are probably more Junior Clubs in Scotland than Senior so they are hardly isolated. 

[FairWeatherFan]

37 minutes ago, RabidAl said:

What i'm driving at is whether there is any obstacle, in the form of licencing, to the west juniors divisions (of unlicenced clubs) slotting into the pyramid under the LL as a West of Scotland League?

There shouldn't be. Licencing only comes in to play for SoSFL/EoSFL clubs if they win their respective league and want promotion to the Lowland League.

[Goalie Hamish]

26 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

I only answer sensible questions Hamish when i have time ;-) , as for being isolated do you not know that there are probably more Junior Clubs in Scotland than Senior so they are hardly isolated. 

Still nae list though, it's your chance to put the case forward for the Juniors to remain as they are 

I'd say isolated is accurate since they don't interact with the rest of Scottish fitba, have a different governing body, but rely on the SFA providing referees.

[energyzone]

Since this emailed proposal was sent from BSC Glasgow to an number of junior clubs, have any of the clubs identified themselves or entered any discussions with fans regarding the idea?

[RabidAl]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There shouldn't be. Licencing only comes in to play for SoSFL/EoSFL clubs if they win their respective league and want promotion to the Lowland League.

So there's no technical issue that would be a barrier to a WoSFL being established at tier 6 (and below)? 

It would just be a case of BSC obtaining the signatures of interested clubs/stakeholders from the LL and juniors, then taking them to the SFA and saying that they want a division/league at tier 6 of the pyramid that they can be promoted from/relegated to that is closer to them in terms of geography and quality of football than the SoSFL, which is too distant and is all-but-amateur? 

Hope it happens before any of the big boys' colt teams or any non-club clubs emerge to fill the lacuna.