Junior football, what is the future?

[Monalie]

Any news trickling out from  Friday's meeting?

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Monalie said:

Any news trickling out from  Friday's meeting?

From what I hear, nothing to report and don't expect any changes.  I don't believe a WoSFL was even mentioned so it will be upto the clubs.

[Sergeant Wilson]

36 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

From what I hear, nothing to report and don't expect any changes.  I don't believe a WoSFL was even mentioned so it will be upto the clubs.

If that's true, it's even worse than expected. I can hardly believe not one rep didn't ask to raise it, even under AOB. The SJFA need to present their proposal.

[theshed]

If that's true, it's even worse than expected. I can hardly believe not one rep didn't ask to raise it, even under AOB. The SJFA need to present their proposal.

This suits the sjfa , they don't want any proposals , they dont want anything other than to remain with the present status quo , turkeys voting for Xmas comes to mind , any change will be up to the club's and the club's only as these guys won't want to effectively lose their positions .

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

If that's true, it's even worse than expected. I can hardly believe not one rep didn't ask to raise it, even under AOB. The SJFA need to present their proposal.

I understand the proposal from TJ was simply that the West and East Superleague champs play-off with EoS and SoS for promotion to LL, presumably meaning that the SJFA would remain unchanged (and effectively outside the Pyramid and unlicenced?).  So if true, no progress.

Clubs are going to have to force the issue themselves.

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I understand the proposal from TJ was simply that the West and East Superleague champs play-off with EoS and SoS for promotion to LL, presumably meaning that the SJFA would remain unchanged (and effectively outside the Pyramid and unlicenced?).  So if true, no progress.

Clubs are going to have to force the issue themselves.

 

That's about the best compromise without dramatically uprooting the whole non-SPFL structure. Let's the likes of Auchinleck Talbot get their licence and forces Junior leagues to organise their fixtures better to allow time for a play-off.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's about the best compromise without dramatically uprooting the whole non-SPFL structure. Let's the likes of Auchinleck Talbot get their licence and forces Junior leagues to organise their fixtures better to allow time for a play-off.

It's not going to happen though, certainly not anytime soon, I was told no change until 2019/2020 at the earliest.   The impression was given that neither the SFA or SJFA are too bothered about Junior clubs being involved, which if true, is damning of both organisations.

So, the BSC proposal appears to be the only show in town for West clubs at the moment who want to progress and get Licenced.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Burnie_man

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's not going to happen though, certainly not anytime soon, I was told no change until at least 2019/2020.   The impression was given that neither the SFA or SJFA are too bothered about Junior clubs being involved, which if true, is damning of both organisations.

So, the BSC proposal appears to be the only show in town for West clubs at the moment.

That's the frustrating part and that's why individual clubs are going to have to start making moves. We're seeing moves in the East, hopefully the BSC proposal gets some traction. Although it's looking more likely that BSC reserves will have to fill out any first season.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's the frustrating part and that's why individual clubs are going to have to start making moves. We're seeing moves in the East, hopefully the BSC proposal gets some traction. Although it's looking more likely that BSC reserves will have to fill out any first season.

Clubs jumping the fence in the East will continue and increase.  For those in the West who harbour ambitions to become Licenced and compete in the LL & Scottish Cup then they need to get together with BSC and LL/EoS/SoS and plan it out.  I don't think the SFA would stand in anyone's way if a serious case was made to start up a WoSFL if the numbers are there to do it.

[LongTimeLurker]

12 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Told today it's Dalkeith Thistle moving to East of Scotland League. True or not?

Makes sense. I'm sure they would do well and have a very good shot at getting to the Lowland League within a couple of years of joining.

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's the frustrating part and that's why individual clubs are going to have to start making moves. We're seeing moves in the East, hopefully the BSC proposal gets some traction. Although it's looking more likely that BSC reserves will have to fill out any first season.

The last thing the SFA full members want is a massive influx of new licensed clubs, so having a semi-detached junior grade that can't get licensed and join them at the subsidy trough is in their interests. Will be interesting to see what happens in the East if/when the EoS stabilizes in numbers terms at around 16 or so. If the HL can operate as a closed shop with no vacancies there is no obvious reason why the EoS couldn't do that as well. If clubs are thinking of making the move I would strike while the iron is still hot.

[stanley]

I think the EoS would happily expand again and have an extra division.  The problem with that, longer term, junior clubs could have to start in the EoS first division and be two promotions away from the Lowland League.  Pity a big group of them don't join together and then you'd effectively have an East junior division as the EoS division one and they'd continue playing against junior clubs anyway until they are promoted.  Can't see it happening any time soon but it seems inevitable that more junior clubs will join in the future.

Could end up with 15 clubs in the EoS next season if:

-Highland League champions are promoted and Cowdenbeath/Clyde/Edinburgh City are relegated to Lowland League

-Kelty Hearts (or LTHV if they get a licence) win the EoS and Hawick and Vale of Leithen (or another East-based club) are relegated 

-Dalkeith Thistle join the league

Pretty amazing to think that it looked like EoS was in near terminal decline recently.  We just need LTHV to get a licence now so they get promoted to the LL in the future and don't block other clubs getting up.

Edited January 7, 2018 by stanley

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Will be interesting to see what happens in the East if/when the EoS stabilizes in numbers terms at around 16 or so. If the HL can operate as a closed shop with no vacancies there is no obvious reason why the EoS couldn't do that as well. If clubs are thinking of making the move I would strike while the iron is still hot.

From following this stuff in the EoSFL side, i've seen wonderings about the league getting to enough clubs to split into divisions again. Which would certainly be helpful from a quality perspective, but makes jumping from Juniors less attractive having to go through 2 divisions just to get to the Lowland League.

[LongTimeLurker]

58 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I understand the proposal from TJ was simply that the West and East Superleague champs play-off with EoS and SoS for promotion to LL, presumably meaning that the SJFA would remain unchanged (and effectively outside the Pyramid and unlicenced?).  So if true, no progress.

Clubs are going to have to force the issue themselves.

To be fair to Tom Johnston, if that scenario happened junior clubs could get licensed because they would be in the pyramid. Where things get complicated would be if there were any other conditions added on top of that like progression for licensed clubs being purely voluntary because from what I have heard that was often the main point of contention between the SJFA and the Lowland League pyramid organizer types. You only need to look at the SoS league and the widespread belief that Wigtown, who have since went into abeyance,  deliberately avoided winning the championship to avoid forced LL entry to see that the SJFA's posture wasn't completely unreasonable. 

[newcastle broon]

21 minutes ago, stanley said:

 

Pretty amazing to think that it looked like EoS was in near terminal decline recently.  We just need LTHV to get a licence now so they get promoted to the LL in the future and don't block other clubs getting up.

LTHV imo are playing the system. 

They've had plenty chances at getting licensed. 

They seem happy wi the team being competitive on the park  where they are but don't seem in a hurry off it? 

Are they any further forward licensewise? 

[stanley]

Just now, newcastle broon said:

LTHV imo are playing the system. 

They've had plenty chances at getting licensed. 

They seem happy wi the team being competitive on the park  where they are but don't seem in a hurry off it? 

Are they any further forward licensewise? 

I'm not sure if they are any further forward but it seems to be taking a long time.  I think HibeeJibee posted something not too long ago but their plans to become licensed.

I don't really see what benefit there is for them to stay in the EoS winning it/getting second.  I can see why some bigger junior clubs might be happy to stay in the juniors and challenging for the title but those benefits don't apply at all in the EoS.  LTHV are a small fish in a small pond...getting promoted would be a good thing for the club.  I struggle to believe that they are purposely trying to avoid promotion like some of the SoS clubs potentially are.  Completely different situation for LTHV.

[newcastle broon]

52 minutes ago, stanley said:

I'm not sure if they are any further forward but it seems to be taking a long time.  I think HibeeJibee posted something not too long ago but their plans to become licensed.

I don't really see what benefit there is for them to stay in the EoS winning it/getting second.  I can see why some bigger junior clubs might be happy to stay in the juniors and challenging for the title but those benefits don't apply at all in the EoS.  LTHV are a small fish in a small pond...getting promoted would be a good thing for the club.  I struggle to believe that they are purposely trying to avoid promotion like some of the SoS clubs potentially are.  Completely different situation for LTHV.

Yes I seen HJ had posted somewhere with the plans. It's all very well posting plans but hee haw getting done. 

I  just think there are easy opportunities within the EoSFL nowadays to qualify for the Scottish Cup and reap the benefits without the need to be licensed?

Edited January 7, 2018 by newcastle broon

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

To be fair to Tom Johnston, if that scenario happened junior clubs could get licensed because they would be in the pyramid. Where things get complicated would be if there were any other conditions added on top of that like progression for licensed clubs being purely voluntary because from what I have heard that was often the main point of contention between the SJFA and the Lowland League pyramid organizer types. You only need to look at the SoS league and the widespread belief that Wigtown, who have since went into abeyance,  deliberately avoided winning the championship to avoid forced LL entry to see that the SJFA's posture wasn't completely unreasonable. 

If you look back a few pages to the link I put up of the document from 2013, the SJFA's position is and always has been that they would be interested in the Pyramid if the SJFA remained unchanged. No compromise, no negotiation, no rule changes.  That position not changed, they haven't consulted with clubs on their views in order to update their position.

So in that respect, they're not going to be treated as part of the Pyramid. They want to remain an organisation outside of it and offer up a couple of Champions for a play-off. Plus there is no mention of the North region clubs in all of this either. 

They want others to compromise but are not prepared to compromise themselves. That's not conducive to making progress.

[Cyclizine]

The idea of a four way play off (not a five way as the North has been ignored, again) will never be considered by the SFA. The junior leagues are indirectly affiliated to the SFA through their affiliation with the SJFA - they would never have been the SFA's choice of feeder leagues. From the SFA's point of view - there are already leagues for the East and West below the LFL. Yes, they are likely poorer quality than the Superleagues, but they already existed. Historical anomalies or not, the EoSFL and SoSFL are senior leagues affiliated directly to the SFA and have been for a long time. It was only natural that these would be the leagues that would feed the LFL. I'd be the first to admit that this isn't an optimum position to be in,  but it is what we have. It boils down to the convoluted structure of associations and leagues that England did away with nearly  fifty years ago. I think eventually some form of WoSFL will emerge, but it will take time and a lot of compromises from all sides.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

The idea of a four way play off (not a five way as the North has been ignored, again) will never be considered by the SFA. The junior leagues are indirectly affiliated to the SFA through their affiliation with the SJFA - they would never have been the SFA's choice of feeder leagues. From the SFA's point of view - there are already leagues for the East and West below the LFL. Yes, they are likely poorer quality than the Superleagues, but they already existed. Historical anomalies or not, the EoSFL and SoSFL are senior leagues affiliated directly to the SFA and have been for a long time. It was only natural that these would be the leagues that would feed the LFL. I'd be the first to admit that this isn't an optimum position to be in,  but it is what we have. It boils down to the convoluted structure of associations and leagues that England did away with nearly  fifty years ago. I think eventually some form of WoSFL will emerge, but it will take time and a lot of compromises from all sides.

 

I'm still not ruling out the possibility of a Lowland League 2 if there becomes enough Licenced teams with an Eastern bias. You look at how some of the West of Scotland teams have placed their youth teams in the EoSFL structure and the admittedly pure speculation of Clydebank opting for the EoSFL if they were to go for their licence.

[stanley]

1 hour ago, newcastle broon said:

Yes I seen HJ had posted somewhere with the plans. It's all very well posting plans but hee haw getting done. 

I  just think there are easy opportunities within the EoSFL nowadays to qualify for the Scottish Cup and reap the benefits without the need to be licensed?

Yes but if they became licensed and got promoted, they would be in the Scottish Cup each season automatically as well.  They'd also start in the first round rather than in the preliminary rounds (where they could easily have to play junior sides).  

Lowland League would give them far more opportunities.  Playing against bigger clubs with more fans (than the EoS, not claiming there are huge fanbases) and would give them a wider exposure.  They've clearly demonstrated over the years that they are very capable of doing well in the Lowland League.

I don't understand the argument that they would prefer to stay in the EoS.  Other than the potential financial costs of bringing Saughton up to the required standard.