archieb Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, the rambler said: Absolutely, but have we made the wrong choice? Mebbes we'll get to vote again on the final deal? But what about the North-South border? Edited March 30, 2018 by archieb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 7 hours ago, Afrojim said: I was reading through the various comments on this thread today and took note of some of the concerns/issues that people have about their clubs joining the non-league structure and the flaws in the structure as it currently stands. The main issues seem to be the potential cost of travel, the disparity between probable regions from tier 6 and below (SoSL at tier 6 etc.), the loss of traditional rivalries and some clubs getting cut adrift without a relevant senior league to play in. When it comes to population within regions and the disparity of the number of clubs that operate within these regions there is, unfortunately, nothing which can be done about that. Scotland's population distribution would make it impossible to create regions that have roughly the same number of people and clubs in each region. However, it is possible to create four regions from tier 6 downwards that cover roughly the same geographic area and retain most of the traditional rivalries that exist in the current senior and junior set-ups respectively. Assuming there is going to be no revision of the Highland/Lowland boundary, which is currently set at the mouth of the Tay, a North West, North East, East and West structure could be implemented with the NW and NE clubs feeding into the Highland League and the other two into the LL. Each region would cover these council areas: North West Senior League: Highland, Argyll & Bute (North), Na h-Eileanan Siar , Shetland, Orkney. North East Senior League: Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen City, Perth & Kinross (North Tay), Dundee City, Angus, Moray. East of Scotland Senior League: City of Edinburgh, Fife, West Lothian, Falkirk, Perth & Kinross (South Tay), Scottish Borders, East Lothian, Stirling, Midlothian, Clackmannanshire, Borough of Berwick-Upon-Tweed (England). West of Scotland Senior League: Glasgow City, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Dumfries & Galloway, North Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, West Dunbartonshire, Argyll & Bute (South), Inverclyde. Area of these regions: NW: 31,186 km2 (Excluding vast underpopulated areas and areas that have no senior or junior clubs: approx. 15,000km2-17,000km2) NE: 12,979 km2 EOS: 13,710 km2 WOS: 20,050 km2 (Excluding Argyll & Bute which currently has no senior or Junior Clubs: 13,141 km2) These regions are about as even as you could possibly make them in terms of size when Scotland's complex geography is taken into consideration. In the West and North West there is always the possibility that an outlier club may want to join in the future, say a club in Dunoon wanting to join the West for example. In that scenario it would only be one difficult/costly away trip a season for the other member clubs in that region. Likely Greatest Distance Between Member Clubs (taking into consideration all current Senior & Junior Clubs): NW: Fort William to Kirkwall = 220 Miles (Fort William to Thurso 170 Miles) NE: Dundee to Burghead = 140 Miles EOS: Tweedmouth to Tayport = 120 Miles WOS: Wigtown to Greenock = 110 Miles In the West even if the SoSL and Juniors were merged into the one regional set-up those clubs would be playing in the second smallest area and possibly have the least amount of travelling to do. Total Number of Clubs by Region* (SPFL, HFL, LFL, NCL, EoSL, SoSL, SJFA & Glasgow University included): NW: 20 Clubs: (2 SPFL Clubs + 6 HFL Clubs + 9 NCL Clubs + 3 North Region Junior Clubs) NE: 68 Clubs: (9 SPFL Clubs + 12 HFL Clubs + 31 North Region Juniors + 16 East Region Juniors) EOS: 82 Clubs: (14 SPFL Clubs + 11 LFL Clubs + 12 EoSL Clubs + 1 West Region Junior Club + 44 East Region Junior Clubs) WOS: 100 Clubs: (17 SPFL Clubs + 5 LFL Clubs + 14 SoSL Clubs + 63 West Region Junior Clubs + Glasgow University) Total Number of Clubs by Region* when Junior Clubs that Responded 'No' to Pyramid Survey are Excluded (SPFL, HFL, LFL, NCL, EoSL, SoSL, SJFA & Glasgow University included): NW: 19 Clubs: (2 SPFL Clubs + 6 HFL Clubs + 9 NCL Clubs + 2 North Region Junior Clubs) NE: 53 Clubs: (9 SPFL Clubs + 12 HFL Clubs + 21 North Region Juniors + 11 East Region Juniors) EOS: 72 Clubs: (14 SPFL Clubs + 11 LFL Clubs + 12 EoSL Clubs + 1 West Region Junior Club + 34 East Region Junior Clubs) WOS: 71 Clubs: (17 SPFL Clubs + 5 LFL Clubs + 14 SoSL Clubs + 34 West Region Junior Clubs + Glasgow University) *Excluding reserve teams - Stirling University, Stranraer & Annan Athletic. Number of Clubs to be Integrated from tier 6 and Below*: NW: 11 (9 NCL Clubs + 2 North Region Junior Clubs) - one division of 11 Clubs NE: 32 (21 North Region Juniors + 11 East Region Juniors) - two divisions of 16 Clubs EOS:47 (12 EoSL Clubs + 1 West Region Junior Club + 34 East Region Junior Clubs) - two divisions of 16 + one of 15 WOS:49 (14 SoSL Clubs + 34 West Region Junior Clubs + Glasgow University) - two divisions of 16 + one of 17 *assuming no junior clubs have a change of heart and all senior clubs would be willing to participate in new regional structure The only big disparity in terms of number of clubs appears between the NE and NW but you couldn't expect clubs from Dundee and Perthshire to travel to Thurso and Orkney at tier 6, the only reasonable solution is to have those two separate regions feeding into the HL - from tier 5 upwards clubs should be expected to/be capable of travelling further distances anyway as preparation for potentially moving up into the SPFL. Obviously there are double the number of clubs in the Lowland area than there are in the Highland area. In time that anomaly could be dealt with simply by increasing the number of promotion places to the SPFL to 2 and having a play-off in which the LL champions play the HL runners-up and HL champions play the LL runners-up with both winners being promoted to the SPFL. That way if the LL becomes far stronger than the HL due to the area having more clubs then the difference can be settled on the pitch. A very good effort, but it will not be implemented, as there are far too many divergent views and vested interests. A couple of points worth highlighting are: (1) Relegation from the SPFL Division 2, should be automatic for the bottom club, replaced by the Lowland/Highland play-off winners. Essential to give stimulation to the non-league Pyramid clubs. Would also make it 'marginally easier' for ex-league clubs to win back their SPFL place after relegation. A review to consider 2 up/2 down (as suggested above) should not take place (for 3 years), to see how automatic promotion and relegation has worked. (2) Four regions at Tier 6 makes sense in terms of location and travelling costs. It would also end the isolation of clubs in the north west. (I have never understood why the SoSL is officially a senior league, and the NCL isn't, especially as clubs like Thurso and Orkney (Kirkwall) FC have much higher fan bases (local populations) than than many clubs in the SoSL). However clubs at Tier 6 and below, should be allowed to decline promotion, without penalty, if their viability is threatened by being promoted (3) a nationwide SFA Trophy should be considered for non-league clubs, regionalised until the quarter finals (4) the above should not be rushed, to give the existing turmoil a chance to settle down, and for rational/detailed consideration to take place involving all the relevant parties . Perhaps 2019/20 or even 2020/21 ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Robert James said: A very good effort, but it will not be implemented, as there are far too many divergent views and vested interests. A couple of points worth highlighting are: (1) Relegation from the SPFL Division 2, should be automatic for the bottom club, replaced by the Lowland/Highland play-off winners. Essential to give stimulation to the non-league Pyramid clubs. Would also make it 'marginally easier' for ex-league clubs to win back their SPFL place after relegation. A review to consider 2 up/2 down (as suggested above) should not take place (for 3 years), to see how automatic promotion and relegation has worked. (2) Four regions at Tier 6 makes sense in terms of location and travelling costs. It would also end the isolation of clubs in the north west. (I have never understood why the SoSL is officially a senior league, and the NCL isn't, especially as clubs like Thurso and Orkney (Kirkwall) FC have much higher fan bases (local populations) than than many clubs in the SoSL). However clubs at Tier 6 and below, should be allowed to decline promotion, without penalty, if their viability is threatened by being promoted (3) a nationwide SFA Trophy should be considered for non-league clubs, regionalised until the quarter finals (4) the above should not be rushed, to give the existing turmoil a chance to settle down, and for rational/detailed consideration to take place involving all the relevant parties . Perhaps 2019/20 or even 2020/21 ? I thought the North Caledonian League was a senior league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monthelie' Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Burnie_man said: Just catching up on older posts, this seems to be a point missed by many, why would those clubs who want to be in the Pyramid rely on a man who has opposed it and bad mouthed it at every opportunity? Him and his sidekick. It's frankly daft. The EGM's first task should be to remove him from his post and appoint someone on an interim basis who is capable of engaging with the SFA whilst not looking two faced in doing so because everyone in those SFA Pyramid meetings knows his attitude towards the Pyramid. In fact if he had any integrity he'd resign. So he won't resign then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, archieb said: Just like the Brexit referendum eh? No not like the EU referendum, where Scotland only had 2 choices: (1) stay as part of the UK, or (2) be fully integrated into the United States of Europe. "Hobson's choice", and absolutely NOT for debate on this forum !! -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: I thought the North Caledonian League was a senior league. In the eyes of the SFA the NCL is an affiliated 'quasi-senior league', but its champion club is not invited to participate in the Scottish Cup each season. This is not consistent with the situation in the EoSL and the SoSL, where their respective champion clubs are invited to enter, regardless as to whether or not they hold an SFA licence. As in more recent years, the unlicensed 3 SJFA league champions, Junior Cup, and Amateur Cup winners, are also invited to participate. Current SFA licence holders below Tier 5 : EoSL 3 clubs, SoSL 3* clubs, NCL 1 club, SJFA 2 clubs, Amateurs 1 club, who automatically enter the Scottish each season. (* Wigtown & Bladnoch taking a year out) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archieb Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, Robert James said: In the eyes of the SFA the NCL is an affiliated 'quasi-senior league', but its champion club is not invited to participate in the Scottish Cup each season. This is not consistent with the situation in the EoSL and the SoSL, where their respective champion clubs are invited to enter, regardless as to whether or not they hold an SFA licence. As in more recent years, the unlicensed 3 SJFA league champions, Junior Cup, and Amateur Cup winners, are also invited to participate. Current SFA licence holders below Tier 5 : EoSL 3 clubs, SoSL 3* clubs, NCL 1 club, SJFA 2 clubs, Amateurs 1 club, who automatically enter the Scottish each season. (* Wigtown & Bladnoch taking a year out) SJFA 3 clubs - Banks O'Dee, Girvan & Linlithgow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 North Caley are also the only league outwith Juniors that use refs not on the Senior list. I don't know whether that's simply geographic necessity or reflection of status. Not even Golspie always get Cats 4 and above. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 With regards to the future of the North Juniors, and their future relationship with the Pyramid/HL, does anyone know if the HL can impose further requirements on clubs “promoted” in future even if they have an entry level Licence? We’re told that a HL requirement is floodlights, but as that is not an entry level Licence requirement, can they enforce it? Immaterial at the moment of course due to Banks O’Dee being the only Licenced club in the North Juniors, and who have floodlights anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debian Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert James said: In the eyes of the SFA the NCL is an affiliated 'quasi-senior league', but its champion club is not invited to participate in the Scottish Cup each season. This is not consistent with the situation in the EoSL and the SoSL, where their respective champion clubs are invited to enter, regardless as to whether or not they hold an SFA licence. As in more recent years, the unlicensed 3 SJFA league champions, Junior Cup, and Amateur Cup winners, are also invited to participate. Current SFA licence holders below Tier 5 : EoSL 3 clubs, SoSL 3* clubs, NCL 1 club, SJFA 2 clubs, Amateurs 1 club, who automatically enter the Scottish each season. (* Wigtown & Bladnoch taking a year out) Threave Rovers Newton Stewart St Cuthbert Wanderers Wigtown & Bladnoch 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: With regards to the future of the North Juniors, and their future relationship with the Pyramid/HL, does anyone know if the HL can impose further requirements on clubs “promoted” in future even if they have an entry level Licence? We’re told that a HL requirement is floodlights, but as that is not an entry level Licence requirement, can they enforce it? Immaterial at the moment of course due to Banks O’Dee being the only Licenced club in the North Juniors, and who have floodlights anyway. No idea if the HFL could do this, and it would probably need NCL/licensed Golspie who don't have floodlights, to lodge a test case. They won't do this anytime soon, if at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, debian said: Threave Rovers Newton Stewart St Cuthbert Wanderers Wigtown & Bladnoch Wigtown & Bladnoch have taken a year out from the SoSL this season, but apparently plan to return in 2018/19. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broomhill Ultra Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Theres no really much change in the the pyramid to what the Juniors have at the minute, the logical solution would be to have 2 East and West Of Scotland Divisions with regional leagues underneath, Scottish Junior Cup for all non league clubs (keep the name for historical reasons???) Tier 5 - Highland & Lowland Tier 6 & 7 - North Div 1 -- East Of Scotland Div 1 & 2 -- West Of Scotland Div 1 & 2 -- South Of Scotland Div 1 Tier 8 & 9 - North Leagues, Fife & Tayside Leagues, Lothians Leagues, Central Leagues, Ayrshire Leagues The shot in the arm non league football can get from everyone working together could be huge in terms of exposure and forward thinking. The strong force of working as 1 for the greater good and the removal of the glass ceiling although keeping regional football at certain levels caters for all big and small clubs, it becomes really attractive for clubs and the public. If agreement is reached then given a can do attitude, good marketing and how the product is sold to supporters, sponsors, the public then non league football will flourish. Being part of something successful wether thats a club or a product that delivers is very much attractive to supporters and companies who are potential sponsors of not only clubs but also big companies who may be interested in getting involved as League and Cup sponsors, they can feel valued with an excellent product showing off their brand. The magic of Junior football that we all love and loved is slowly dying, theres no hiding from that, crowds are down, sponsors are down and the grade doesnt sell itself great. All clubs sell there self incredibly well and are doing a brilliant job but the SJFA are failing by not engaging and moving with the modern times. There is a need to preserve the great village and town clubs into something modern where working as 1, exposure and rewards in a vibrant grade can really boost the non league in Scotland. Scottish Football although some may argue is going in the right direction imo, the youths coming through to the national team are getting better due to the performance schools and work done in acadamys, reserve team football coming back is a positive, crowds are up at most clubs, theres a new league sponsorship and tv deal coming in 2020, most of the SPFL clubs are doing great work posting profits with no debt attached to their clubs, Aberdeen, Hearts Hibs and Rangers all improving on and off the pitch slowly getting closer to Celtic, its tracking fairly well just now id say. Get round the table, get this sorted with no agenda's, no self preservation and get non league football thriving in the quickest time possible with a can do, forward thinking and ambitious approach. 9 Tiers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I don't know when the EGM is, but if someone could ask, I would quite like TJ to clarify where he cherry-picked his "£80k a pop" for floodlights number from. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Che Dail Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, the jambo-rocker said: I don't know when the EGM is, but if someone could ask, I would quite like TJ to clarify where he cherry-picked his "£80k a pop" for floodlights number from. Floodlights aren't even required for the entry level club license. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jambo-rocker Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Che Dail said: Floodlights aren't even required for the entry level club license. I'd still like an answer for the northern juniors perspective. Edited March 30, 2018 by the jambo-rocker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energyzone Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 How much are floodlights to install? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lithgierose Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, energyzone said: How much are floodlights to install? Circa 60k 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkcircus Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Abacus can do them for 25k second hand light system 5/10k 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calmac25 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I'm not sure if it's been posted already but Musselburgh announced a special meeting for the 4th of April 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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