Junior football, what is the future?

[HTG]

I would add that the "small number of clubs" in a specific area does have a big impact on that area. No point kidding otherwise. Ideally there would be an integrated solution from 18/19. But if the SJFA and the EoSFL are both equally determined to retain their identity then politics will triumph over practicality and what is actually best for clubs and their supporters. 

[HTG]

3 minutes ago, stanley said:

Whatever happens, a tier six of EoS, SoS, East juniors and West juniors would be absolutely ridiculous and should be avoided at all costs.

Why?  There are 4 covering 3 very diverse areas of the country. Obviously it's stupid to have 2 in the east but avoiding stupid is a question of compromise.  Folk can very well argue that the juniors have been slow off the mark but they can't continue to scoff at their parochialism and at the same time tell them to f**k off as they're not welcome. Is the pyramid stronger with the juniors? Aye it is.  Are officials going to cut their nose off to spite their face?  Maybe. Is anyone able to look forward 16 months?  Who knows. 

[stanley]

2 minutes ago, HTG said:

Why?  There are 4 covering 3 very diverse areas of the country. Obviously it's stupid to have 2 in the east but avoiding stupid is a question of compromise.  Folk can very well argue that the juniors have been slow off the mark but they can't continue to scoff at their parochialism and at the same time tell them to f**k off as they're not welcome. Is the pyramid stronger with the juniors? Aye it is.  Are officials going to cut their nose off to spite their face?  Maybe. Is anyone able to look forward 16 months?  Who knows. 

I don't think the juniors should "f**k off".  I 100% want the juniors to join the pyramid and have a proper integrated system.

The four-way split would be:

East of Scotland#1

East of Scotland#2

West of Scotland

Dumfries & Galloway

It would be chaos trying to work out where teams get relegated to.  If new teams join the pyramid system then where do they go?  If Kelty get promoted to the Lowland League and relegated back down then which league do they go to?  The old EoS seniors or East juniors?  It would be a total mess and, if anything, discourage integration.  It would keep the old seniors and juniors divide in place effectively.

You need a proper integration with an East and West league at tier six (ideally tier five longer term).   For starters, create a Lowland League division one East and West.  Invite applicants from all seniors, juniors etc. and get in teams who have a licence or can achieve one.  Then the rest of the system is worked out below that.   I doubt it will work out that way in reality but it would be an easier way to avoid the SoS being at tier six and the mess of the East merger.  Whatever you do, there will be problems but the four-way split at tier six is crazy and will not help there to be a proper unified system.

[Ivo den Bieman]

4 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Totally different animal down there. I do not know of one person who would say they were a supporter of Arbroath Vics, sure you wouldn’t know any or many supporters of the Roselea too.

Up here it’s just viewed as the next step up for players who are doing well in the amateur league.

 

In fairness Roselea had quite a following when I lived in the town and a well respected, hard working committee. Montrose seniors were in the doldrums a bit and a fair few fans went to Roselea for an enjoyable day out.

I haven’t lived in Montrose for a while now do not sure how attendances have been affected by the move to the North set up.

[1320Lichtie]

In fairness Roselea had quite a following when I lived in the town and a well respected, hard working committee. Montrose seniors were in the doldrums a bit and a fair few fans went to Roselea for an enjoyable day out.
I haven’t lived in Montrose for a while now do not sure how attendances have been affected by the move to the North set up.

My mate played for them. Be lucky if there were over 20 on the public side of the railings, same with the Vics. Including family. Highlights used to go up on YouTube dunno if they still do.

[Burnie_man]

16 minutes ago, HTG said:

I'll have a bash. 

EGM - majority vote will prevail. If the survey result is accurate, it will pass. 

SFA - Regan leaving does not render any discussion irrelevant. He was representing the SFA not himself as an individual. The SFA will need to u-turn.

East - the EoS can "resist" but the SFA makes the decision. Not in the gift of the EoS to prevent it. 

West - teams who don't want to sit at tier 6 drop to a level they are comfortable with. Those not keen on Pyramid accept the decision of the majority or shift to an alternative association. If the teams are going in as is, this isn't going to be a big deal. SoS = same as EoS. Seems they mostly don't want to be travelling to Glasgow anyway so probably welcome non integration. 

North - not the problem of the SJFA. A matter for the SFA and HFL to resolve because the tier 6 teams will need a pathway.

North/East - not insurmountable. Potential to run a tier 6 north and a tier 6 south under the HFL same as for the LL. Teams not wanting to travel go to tier 7 or whatever level suits - same for every region of the country. 

Lowland - see above. They'll need to make it work because it's not their decision. Decision is solely that of the SFA.

Juniors - majority rules as has consistently been the case. Like it or leave (kind of what Kelty did in reverse) or drop to a level you're happy at.  

Junior Cup and reinstatement are not big issues. 

I'd go as far as to say none of these are big issues for the SJFA. If the SFA is supportive of juniors in the Pyramid at tier 6, that's where they'll go. Like everything else in life it can be made to work and rationalised over time. 

Let's not be continually hooked up by the application deadlines for a different league. That lies at the heart of much of this now but only deals with a small number of clubs in a relatively narrow area. If the juniors are going in their top league teams will all start at the same level. 

If the SFA doesn't approve that, disregard all of this. If they do, it's all valid. In my very personal opinion. 

Thanks HTG.

A couple of points, if there is significant dissent to joining a Pyramid that is going to cause problems to the SJFA, a straight majority situation just wont wash and it will be noted elsewhere.

I think you may hope for more direct orders from the SFA than they really feel obliged to give (rightly or wrongly), particularly due to the intransigence and disrespect shown by the SJFA over the past 6 years towards the Pyramid, Licencing etc.  Will they run roughshod over the opinions of the EoSFL or the LL in favour of the SJFA? I have serious doubts.

Finally, the situation in the East is the biggest hurdle of them all with no simple solution, apart from "join the EoS" of course.

The post was to try and pull together all the different hurdles mentioned on here that need to be overcome, some shouldn't pose an issue but others definitely will. Take your pick as to which one is which, but it's not an easy ride as the SJFA may like everyone believe.

[energyzone]

There is a popular misconception that there is some kind of "ban" on the use of floodlights in the juniors.
There is no ban.
There is a rule that says both teams must be in agreement to their use and that is where the problems arise as some teams take the view that it somehow gives the home team some kind of advantage and others say it is harder to have a full squad available midweek when travelling is involved.
Have never personally agreed with any of those excuses.
 

It would be interesting to see how often any of the floodlight-owning clubs have requested to play a match under them in the last couple of seasons. The only one I know about was Ardrossan (v Ardeer??) last season.

[Ginaro]

8 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

Personally not a fan of the pyramid concept and never will be - doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that the alternative is a slow painful death.  Linlithgow are currently struggling with an ageing committee/support who have little or no understanding of the current predicament - because change hasn't been discussed properly and the loudest voices are negative.

Are you a fan of the current Junior pyramid which Linlithgow are a part of? Don't you think it's a bit silly there's nowhere for the Superleague winners to go?

20 minutes ago, stanley said:

Whatever happens, a tier six of EoS, SoS, East juniors and West juniors would be absolutely ridiculous and should be avoided at all costs.

Exactly. In the east next season it'll probably be ~30 in the EoS with about 45-50 still in the Juniors. If the rest of the Juniors who said in the survey they want to be part of the pyramid move to the EoS in 2019/20, it will tip the numbers in favour of the EoS. Those remaining in the Juniors can stay there if they want.

Of course the issue of the Tayside clubs needs to be sorted - IMO the best way to do that is to move the boundary north and have Lowland League East and West at tier 5, then tier 6 with north/south leagues in each region after that.

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, HTG said:

Why?  There are 4 covering 3 very diverse areas of the country. Obviously it's stupid to have 2 in the east but avoiding stupid is a question of compromise.  Folk can very well argue that the juniors have been slow off the mark but they can't continue to scoff at their parochialism and at the same time tell them to f**k off as they're not welcome. Is the pyramid stronger with the juniors? Aye it is.  Are officials going to cut their nose off to spite their face?  Maybe. Is anyone able to look forward 16 months?  Who knows. 

I have no doubt that if this whole thing flies at Hampden there is going to have to be compromises.

SJFA - We want to enter at tier 6 intact and bring all our members with us, that's what the majority want now.

SFA - I hear what you're saying, but the EoSFL fill the Pyramid in the East at tier 6 and 7, and we don't allow other FA's run leagues for us.

LL - We don't want 4 feeders with two from the East.

EoS - Nae chance!

SJFA - OK, let us be the ones to form the WoSFL and NoSFL and we'll let the EoS have the East.

HFL - Suits us, we're no really interested anyway.

LL - Deal.

HFL - Deal.

EoS - Deal.

SFA - OK, deal.

SJFA - Excellent. East clubs, link up with the EoSFL.

 

 

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

In an attempt to pull some of the information together and summarise what’s known of the SJFA’s approach to gaining entry to the Pyramid, and on the basis that they want to remain intact with the current structures at tier 6, here are some of the challenges they face;

EGM - Attempting to gain consensus amongst the member clubs to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact, including those whose primary wish is to remain Junior. What happens if some clubs refuse?

SFA – Attempting to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact at tier 6 and with the agreement of all parties. Any previous informal promise made by Stewart Regan is now irrelevant.

East – Attempting to reach an agreement that allows the SJFA to enter the Pyramid and run a parallel competition in the same geographical area as the EoSFL and create two East feeders to the LL  This is likely to be resisted by the EoSFL.

West – Attempting to take the West Region JFA into the Pyramid in its entirety and become a defacto WoSFL.  How does this affect the 45% of West clubs who don’t want to be part of the Pyramid? Also where does this leave SoSFL?

North – Attempting to take the North Region into the Pyramid in its entirety and dealing with the issue of interaction with the HFL.

North/East - Resolving the issue of the Tayside/Perthshire clubs being classed in a different Region than the SFA consider them to be with the added complication of not all of them wanting to join the Pyramid, not all of them will want to travel North either to be part of any future HFL structure.

Lowland – In the event of all the above being successful, will the LL accept 4 different feeder leagues (EoS, SoS, West JFA, East JFA), and the issue of promotion/relegation  eg. Edusport would want to be relegated into the top West league, where do Dalbeattie go?

Juniors – Bottom line, some clubs are happy with their lot and just want to remain Junior. What next?

Then there is the issue of the Junior Cup, rules would need to be changed so as not to disrupt fixtures, will all tier 6 be invited to compete? The re-instatement rule would also need to be abolished to bring the game into line with the rest of the Pyramid.

This is the challenge ahead for the SJFA as I see it, were any of their points addressed at last nights meeting?

Interesting summary, but you've missed the MAIN challenge for the SJFA. This is :-

Tier 6  ; convincing the SFA that there is in future role for the SJFA itself, at this level of the (SFA's) Pyramid. If not then the SJFA needs to establish a revamped identity/association for junior clubs who are not prepared to commit to the pyramid, accept promotion, work towards a licence, etc. Ambition, commitment, and finance needed.

 

[cmontheloknow]

31 minutes ago, stanley said:

I don't think the juniors should "f**k off".  I 100% want the juniors to join the pyramid and have a proper integrated system.

The four-way split would be:

East of Scotland#1

East of Scotland#2

West of Scotland

Dumfries & Galloway

It would be chaos trying to work out where teams get relegated to.  If new teams join the pyramid system then where do they go?  If Kelty get promoted to the Lowland League and relegated back down then which league do they go to?  The old EoS seniors or East juniors?  It would be a total mess and, if anything, discourage integration.  It would keep the old seniors and juniors divide in place effectively.

You need a proper integration with an East and West league at tier six (ideally tier five longer term).   For starters, create a Lowland League division one East and West.  Invite applicants from all seniors, juniors etc. and get in teams who have a licence or can achieve one.  Then the rest of the system is worked out below that.   I doubt it will work out that way in reality but it would be an easier way to avoid the SoS being at tier six and the mess of the East merger.  Whatever you do, there will be problems but the four-way split at tier six is crazy and will not help there to be a proper unified system.

The South of Scotland League being where it is, unchanged, is an issue as I see it. It has a very small level of population and almost all its clubs are ran on an amateur basis. It has a third the population of Fife and Edinburgh. There is therefore more justification for Fife to have its own feeder or Edinburgh. What about Glasgow, 6 times bigger than D&G? A small rural league cannot fairly have such a share of the access to the LL.

[kenny131]

If it's the pyramid the juniors are going into then only thing needing changed is the removal of the word juniors keep the leagues the same as they are and winners of East and West junior leagues and eos go up into the lowland job done,  with 3 teams getting Relegated from the lowland put those going down into the nearest league travel wise if that means 3 go into the east prem then so be it just means more relegated from East prem sounds un fair but you can't have lower leagues wagging the dog as to speak.

[Burnie_man]

21 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Interesting summary, but you've missed the MAIN challenge for the SJFA. This is :-

Tier 6  ; convincing the SFA that there is in future role for the SJFA itself, at this level of the (SFA's) Pyramid. If not then the SJFA needs to establish a revamped identity/association for junior clubs who are not prepared to commit to the pyramid, accept promotion, work towards a licence, etc. Ambition, commitment, and finance needed.

 

That's what I alluded to, not too clearly obviously, under;

SFA – Attempting to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact at tier 6 and with the agreement of all parties. Any previous informal promise made by Stewart Regan is now irrelevant.

But yes I agree, that's a major issue.

[FairWeatherFan]

I'm not sure why people think that the SFA are going to be the final say/powerbrokers over how the juniors may integrate into the pyramid. Apart from the creation of the Lowland League, hasn't everything else gone against them. The 10 team Highland/Lowland leagues, the Highland League going to 16. Then they took a back seat let the non-SPFL senior leagues just get tacked on at the bottom. Even enforcing the South & East's standing by telling Auchinleck & Kelty they'd have to join those leagues in order to pursue a licence.

 

[Auld Heid]

If the SFA would actually came out and outlined their thoughts that would be a start.

 

Instead we have chaos in the East. An average junior side now isn't suddenly going to become a better side because they move up divisions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, kenny131 said:

If it's the pyramid the juniors are going into then only thing needing changed is the removal of the word juniors keep the leagues the same as they are and winners of East and West junior leagues and eos go up into the lowland job done,  with 3 teams getting Relegated from the lowland put those going down into the nearest league travel wise if that means 3 go into the east prem then so be it just means more relegated from East prem sounds un fair but you can't have lower leagues wagging the dog as to speak.

There can't be two leagues in the east, can there?

[santheman]

2 hours ago, energyzone said:

5 hours ago, santheman said:

There is a popular misconception that there is some kind of "ban" on the use of floodlights in the juniors.
There is no ban.
There is a rule that says both teams must be in agreement to their use and that is where the problems arise as some teams take the view that it somehow gives the home team some kind of advantage and others say it is harder to have a full squad available midweek when travelling is involved.
Have never personally agreed with any of those excuses.
 

It would be interesting to see how often any of the floodlight-owning clubs have requested to play a match under them in the last couple of seasons. The only one I know about was Ardrossan (v Ardeer??) last season.

Although not strictly a floodlight owning club as such, Royal Albert played Bellshill under floodlights at Carluke a couple of weeks ago with a crowd that was probably double what would have been expected on the Saturday at the same venue

[patriot1]

41 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

There can't be two leagues in the east, can there?

That's what Tom Johnston wants. The juniors to be separate but still in the pyramid.

Does anyone know someone who is going to the EOS meeting tomorrow night? It would be great if we could finally see a definitive list of those clubs who have applied to join.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

There can't be two leagues in the east, can there?

Anything is possible, but I doubt it,

[LongTimeLurker]

I suspect the way out of this predicament from an SFA standpoint is to mandate that all tier 6 clubs below the LL have to be licensed by the start of 2019-20 and in that way effectively control who gains access and how it gets operated thereafter rather than handing over the keys to an affiliated association with let's phrase this diplomatically a questionable track record in organizational terms. That would mean the EoS in the east continuing to do a "we are the Borg" where the east region juniors is concerned, and a new WoS being launched that the licensed SoS clubs, Glasgow Uni and Girvan would be expected to join along with whoever is ready for licensing from the west region juniors. Time will tell basically.