Junior football, what is the future?

[LongTimeLurker]

23 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Just off the top of ma heid, I'm struggling to think of any licensed grounds which are like 3G cages but no doubt somebody will come up with examples.

Banks O'Dee and East Kilbride are probably the closest on that.

[cowdenbeath]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Banks O'Dee and East Kilbride are probably the closest on that.

Never been to  BOD so cant comment, at least EK has a stand and now the shed behind the goal. I suppose it looks a bit weird with just the fence at the other 2 sides. It looks a bit half and half,

Rossvale looks the worst of the new grounds that really is a 3G cage.

[Hillonearth]

6 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

Never been to  BOD so cant comment, at least EK has a stand and now the shed behind the goal. I suppose it looks a bit weird with just the fence at the other 2 sides. It looks a bit half and half,

Rossvale looks the worst of the new grounds that really is a 3G cage.

Probably either Rossvale or when Leith Athletic were playing at the 3G cage outside Murrayfield are the most spartan setups I've come across in terms of new builds - neither are licensed of course.

I was at BoD earlier in the season - it's 3G, but this kinda says football ground to me...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Auld Heid said:

Never been a fan of quantity over quality.  Standards have slipped in recent years where exceptions are made (with best intentions) to established rules in favour of admitting teams.

Some of these modern facilities are no  more than training parks and not proper football grounds in my view.   It will be interesting to see how teams get on with licence applications and funding  improvements.  As some of these clubs have shown no past ambitions to upgrading their parks.

 

Are you aware of the entry requirements for eosfl application and entry into the league? The reason I ask is that most on here have put forward their opinions, which are fine to be fair, but may infact be misguided.

Part of the process to get into either the eosfl and sosfl is to provide information pertaining to any potential applicants commitment to the pyramid (licensing). At no point, as far as I am aware, did current 'on field' operating level even enter the equation for acceptance. To suggest that anything is quantity over quality (only accounting for current on field success only) without having any insight into the processes undertaken is not a defensible position to assume surely? 

I agree that a minority of new 3g parks are far too school like but in terms of the licensing and ground criteria, these only come into the mix if you win the sosfl or eosfl and win the playoff (when entering the LL) 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Guest

[cowdenbeath]

20 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Probably either Rossvale or when Leith Athletic were playing at the 3G cage outside Murrayfield are the most spartan setups I've come across in terms of new builds - neither are licensed of course.

I was at BoD earlier in the season - it's 3G, but this kinda says football ground to me...

Forgot about Leith and the infamous 3G at Meadowbank there are of course now at another cage at Peffermill. Aye Banks O Dee says football grounf to me.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Auld Heid said:

Never been a fan of quantity over quality.  Standards have slipped in recent years where exceptions are made (with best intentions) to established rules in favour of admitting teams.

Some of these modern facilities are no  more than training parks and not proper football grounds in my view.   It will be interesting to see how teams get on with licence applications and funding  improvements.  As some of these clubs have shown no past ambitions to upgrading their parks.

 

I think it makes sense for EOS to accept all these teams. I think quantity is going to bring quality in the end. They will now have the chance, after an intermediate season now, to split in 2 divisions and have the best teams together. The standard in the new EOS Premier from 2019 is going to be a fair bit higher than in the EOS this season (barring Kelty & LTHV). The poorer clubs can play each other in EOS Div 1. Sounds to me like the best for all sides, the bigger and the smaller ones.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Marten said:

I think it makes sense for EOS to accept all these teams. I think quantity is going to bring quality in the end. They will now have the chance, after an intermediate season now, to split in 2 divisions and have the best teams together. The standard in the new EOS Premier from 2019 is going to be a fair bit higher than in the EOS this season (barring Kelty & LTHV). The poorer clubs can play each other in EOS Div 1. Sounds to me like the best for all sides, the bigger and the smaller ones.

This setup would have to be voted on by the member clubs as the direction to take. It wouldn't necessarily be the league that decides - the way it is set up the member clubs would be part of the agreement moving forward, deciding which way to split the leagues. However looking at it common sense wise, why split into division below each other when you can run two concurrent leagues and have playoffs each year as a show game at the seasons end? 

[cmontheloknow]

Gartcairn another 3G cage in Juniors

[Guest]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Gartcairn another 3G cage in Juniors

I may not know all of them, but which 3g parks are classed as cages (Gartcairn apart)? I can't think of many........ 

[nicotina]

1. No future in the juniors when saltcoats can cancel a game last sat week so their players can go the ayr races for a stag do and the sjfa allow it 

On 27/04/2018 at 20:13, HTG said:

For all the people decrying teams who have opted to move out of junior football ... 

It's up to those clubs whether they leave or not. They're all going because they aspire to achieve SFA club licence recognition. 

They are going because that is what the SFA - the governing body (as opposed to the offshoot) - has insisted upon for 5 years now. 

In that time, it's taken until February for the SJFA to get moving. Even then they've done so using derogatory language about other leagues. 

The SJFA has been too slow. Rather than boys like that twitter eejit getting his knickers in a twist about clubs not respecting the grade, they should maybe note that the real disrespect has come from the SFA - who were only responding to the behaviour of the SJFA members.

One thing that is beyond doubt for me. The East Juniors is a shadow of what it was.  Next season will be the football equivalent of purgatory - waiting for someone outside your club to decide your future. I'd be happy enough to just can the season. It's a total waste of time. 

 

[cmontheloknow]

48 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I may not know all of them, but which 3g parks are classed as cages (Gartcairn apart)? I can't think of many........ 

Gartcairn and Rossvale for starters, but as mentioned a few elsewhere, Edinburgh University have one that is used by Leith Athletic, Mid Annandale and Lochmaben share one in Lockerbie. Newton Stewart have improved theirs by adding a covered enclosure.

I raised 3G cages in first place as example of the Juniors going for quantity over quality.

Not Juniors, but one of the best views from a 3G cage in the Amateurs here...

Edited April 29, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Guest]

Playing devil's advocate here..... What percentage of clubs would this be at juniors? Surely it is a relatively small margin..... Probably as many in these types of park as there are those who have a stadium surrounding their 3g parks...... 

 

I wouldn't want people to use the minority of instances to try and make some form of point regarding 3g parks and their being quantity over quality. 

[cmontheloknow]

22 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Playing devil's advocate here..... What percentage of clubs would this be at juniors? Surely it is a relatively small margin..... Probably as many in these types of park as there are those who have a stadium surrounding their 3g parks...... 

 

I wouldn't want people to use the minority of instances to try and make some form of point regarding 3g parks and their being quantity over quality. 

The last clubs to enter the West Region were Gartcairn and Rossvale. There is a view that, at semi pro level, spectator facilities should be considered and 3G cages don't provide a good spectator experience - usually only one side to watch from, no elevation etc... I actually think the clubs coming in is good, new blood and all that, but this isn't the Scottish AFL or the Caledonian League or whatever. Are either any/much different to Palace of Art, Lochinch, the 3G pitch at Glasgow Green, Jock Stein, Matt Busby (a controversial one season Junior venue iirc), the one at Strathclyde Park etc...? 3G / 4G itself is not the point - see Port Glasgow, Bens etc which look like football grounds and have either cover or seats - but such basic facilities are amateur level, not typically Junior. I know Rossvale had issues with the rebuild of Huntershill.

Back to the original point, the Juniors don't turn clubs down unless their facilities are very poor (Alness Utd the only one immediately coming to mind) and clearly 3G cages are considered ok provided the other facilities are to hand, so I think it's a bit unfair to accuse the EoS of taking in anyone as if that is unusual - any set-up wants new clubs.

Edited April 29, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[energyzone]

1. No future in the juniors when saltcoats can cancel a game last sat week so their players can go the ayr races for a stag do and the sjfa allow it 

 

Which is strange as earlier in the season Saltcoats couldn't field a team in the Scottish Cup for genuine reasons (apparently) and were thrown out.

[gaz5]

It is a requirement of licensing criteria that the ground appears to be a football ground and that certain things are "within" the boundary fence, including cover for a minimum of 100.



I suspect that those provisions are in there to avoid the cage scenario, which I agree with you isn't particularly spectator friendly, it's more of a training facility "feel".

I suspect all the teams moving to the EoS who have these facilities and are looking at licensing know this, so it is likely to be less of an issue for them.

[cmontheloknow]

And going back to very original topic! What is the future for Junior football?

Maybe the next logical step (after the pyramid chat settles down) is integration with the amateurs at the lower end of the Juniors provided the teams have a means of preventing free entry, allow for a donation on the gate rather than set admission prices. If spectator facilities weren't a requirement, a number of venues could be used, some already in use by amateur sides from decent leagues. Not sure how it would work with those that play on public parks though. The 3G cages are easiest to bring in as we have them already.

Some of the 3G cage / sports centre facilities in the West that come to mind in addition to Junior / Senior grounds with multiple amateur use like Bens...

Donald Dewar (Clydebank), Scotstoun, Glasgow Green, Palace of Art (Bellahouston), Lochinch (Pollok Park), Ravenscraig (Motherwell), Toryglen, Matt Busby (Bellshill), Jock Stein (Hamilton), Dennis Donnelly (Glasgow), Nethercraigs (Glasgow), Seedhill (Paisley), Cowan Park (Barrhead), Stewarton, Johnstone Community Hub, Ballerup (EK), Merkland (Kirkintilloch), Battery Park (Greenock), Keir Hardie (Holytown), Bothwellhaugh (Motherwell) plus various school pitches.

A few of the more enclosed (or private) amateur parks in West include Strathclyde Uni, Steins Thistle, Milngavie Wanderers, Giffnock North, Viewfield Rovers, Oban Saints, Campbeltown Pupils, Dunoon, Tarbert, Glasgow Harp, St Mungo, Dalziel, Symington Tinto, Rothesay..

Edited April 29, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Hillonearth]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

And going back to very original topic! What is the future for Junior football?

Maybe the next logical step (after the pyramid chat settles down) is integration with the amateurs at the lower end of the Juniors provided the teams have a means of preventing free entry, allow for a donation on the gate rather than set admission prices. If spectator facilities weren't a requirement, a number of venues could be used, some already in use by amateur sides from decent leagues. Not sure how it would work with those that play on public parks though. The 3G cages are easiest to bring in as we have them already.

Would work fine for amateur clubs in the likes of Fife, the Borders and up Nprth where amateur clubs tend more to have their own recognised grounds, but as you say there are a lot of Central belt clubs who play here, there and anywhere - unfortunately this includes most of the stronger amateur clubs who could easily make the step up.

Looking through the CSAFL - which is generally reckoned the strongest amateur league in the country - the majority tend to have several approved grounds that they flit between on account of availability or weather. Few of these are really set up for spectators at all...mostly council parks or school 3Gs.

[cmontheloknow]

9 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Would work fine for amateur clubs in the likes of Fife, the Borders and up Nprth where amateur clubs tend more to have their own recognised grounds, but as you say there are a lot of Central belt clubs who play here, there and anywhere - unfortunately this includes most of the stronger amateur clubs who could easily make the step up.

Looking through the CSAFL - which is generally reckoned the strongest amateur league in the country - the majority tend to have several approved grounds that they flit between on account of availability or weather. Few of these are really set up for spectators at all...mostly council parks or school 3Gs.

Yep, the Central Scottish seems to be the most lenient of the 'big 2' in the West - any ground that gets the game played (it seems). Harestanes have flitted between Merkland and Waterside all season, Colville Park pretty consistently now at Dalziel Park, Bannockburn played a recent midweek game at Stirling High rather than on their public park.

There are rarely ground moves from 1st choice in the Caledonian League (their website like CSAFL is good for showing where the games actually are).

Not sure on Scottish AFL how often 1st choice gets used. Certainly here in Argyll they tend to use 1 or 2 - Dunoon and Tarbert 1, Lochgilphead 2 and Oban Saints usually just Glencruitten though I have seen / heard of games at Mossfield and the school astro (which may have been moved due to the new school just opened?).

If there was integration, there'd need to be a bit less of the 'name 3 grounds' - then again it might help with some of the poor pitches in the Juniors to be able to book a 3G at a school. I guess though the difficulty in saying 'NO to 3 home grounds' is shared facilities are wanted by others. I mentioned Bens - it seems to get a fair bit of use by Southside AFC who also use Palace of Art.

Edited April 29, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Mr Prez]

10 hours ago, drs said:

Are you really that daft that you don't know that the SPFL offers European Qualification?

You really are seething that we are leaving you behind.

Chacefield for the trees imo

[Robert James]

4 hours ago, Marten said:

I think it makes sense for EOS to accept all these teams. I think quantity is going to bring quality in the end. They will now have the chance, after an intermediate season now, to split in 2 divisions and have the best teams together. The standard in the new EOS Premier from 2019 is going to be a fair bit higher than in the EOS this season (barring Kelty & LTHV). The poorer clubs can play each other in EOS Div 1. Sounds to me like the best for all sides, the bigger and the smaller ones.

The rumour is that St Bernards were advised to withdraw their EoS application, as their ground is not yet up to standard. Try again next year apparently ?