Junior football, what is the future?

[Jason King]

24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

To support this argument in terms of outliers.

Carnoustie - Berwick = 137 miles

Carnoustie - Nairn (the furthest North Region Super League club) = 143 miles

Stop brining common sense into this!

[Jason King]

12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You have to draw the line somewhere.

This.

Everyone without a horse in this race can see its common sense for Tayside teams to go North.

[Burnie_man]

I'm not weighing up the scale of the problem. Merely that there is an overlap and you're happy for that to go unresolved and undiscussed.
You also seem okay with clubs just randomly choosing to leave so there's no fixed boundary between the two leagues. Which allows things to be exploited.
Such as Caledonian Braves gets relegated from the LL. Do they go to the WoSFL or the SoSFL? If i'm them I would want to go to the WoSFL. Which means two teams playing at Tier 6 [emoji1]

You're attributing opinions to me which I've never said lol!

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

47 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm not weighing up the scale of the problem. Merely that there is an overlap and you're happy for that to go unresolved and undiscussed.
You also seem okay with clubs just randomly choosing to leave so there's no fixed boundary between the two leagues. Which allows things to be exploited.
Such as Caledonian Braves gets relegated from the LL. Do they go to the WoSFL or the SoSFL? If i'm them I would want to go to the WoSFL. Which means two teams playing at Tier 6

You're attributing opinions to me which I've never said lol!

 

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I have said that bringing in the west should be the main focus of any future PWG meetings, once resolved they then turn their focus to the east.

The SoS has to the best of my knowledge never been discussed at PWG as there's nothing to discuss, the overlap is a small handful of clubs. They won't be forced to move, but some will probably move voluntarily.  Comparing the overlap in the east to the SoS is obviously ridiculous.

 

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

 

That's a whole lot different to allowing teams to "randomly choose", these teams are already in the SoS and are quite entitled to remain there if they wish.

[honestly united]

3 hours ago, wow-wee said:

I can see the geography is a problem and your only other solution would be an East North and East South  league because in my opinion you can't have Tayside teams travelling North a as I don t think it's fair on them.

Dundee teams cant travel to Aberdeen to play  North junior teams?

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 hours ago, honestly united said:

Dundee teams cant travel to Aberdeen to play  North junior teams?

Carnoustie to Aberdeen 59.5 miles. But 74.5 to Edinburgh 

[Guest]

We're ripping up leagues and associations. Yet the South is retained as its own region? 

It really isn't ripping up anything. The west comes on board as is. Its the east that would be joining the eos, nothing more

[Guest]

Fixed

It's not fixed ginaro. There is a requirement for a West, East and South region league structure below the LL.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

19 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

We're ripping up leagues and associations. Yet the South is retained as its own region? 

It really isn't ripping up anything. The west comes on board as is. Its the east that would be joining the eos, nothing more

Pretty much ripped up. SJFA scrapped. Junior Cup in the bin. ERJFA scrapped. East of Scotland Cup in the bin. NRJFA rips up their league set up to accomodate the intake of Tayside clubs.

Tayside also lose the rivlaries they have had with East of Scotland clubs over the 20 odd years and variety of opponents they have had. Right now they all play nationally in the Junior Cup, that's gone. They all play in the East of Scotland through the Region wide competitions, that's gone. They also largely play the North already as 8/16 mix it up once the North & Tayside Cup gets to the last 16 so that's nothing new for them.

And would all the East clubs join? Anytime someone brings up Thornton Hibs as a candidate for applying, someone says they might not get in because of their ground. Seen the same said of Linlithgow Rose CFC now.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That's a whole lot different to allowing teams to "randomly choose", these teams are already in the SoS and are quite entitled to remain there if they wish.

Randomly choosing was in reference to the clubs where there is an overlap. So what's the difference to "randomly choosing" and "voluntarily moving". Say two years go by and Bonnyton Thistle apply to join the WoSFL. That's "voluntarily moving" leagues but to those outside the Bonnyton board it will appear as "randomly choosing" to change leagues.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Randomly choosing was in reference to the clubs where there is an overlap. So what's the difference to "randomly choosing" and "voluntarily moving". Say two years go by and Bonnyton Thistle apply to join the WoSFL. That's "voluntarily moving" leagues but to those outside the Bonnyton board it will appear as "randomly choosing" to change leagues.

There's no issue with the SoS, you're the only one bringing this up.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Pretty much ripped up. SJFA scrapped. Junior Cup in the bin. ERJFA scrapped. East of Scotland Cup in the bin. NRJFA rips up their league set up to accomodate the intake of Tayside clubs.
Tayside also lose the rivlaries they have had with East of Scotland clubs over the 20 odd years and variety of opponents they have had. Right now they all play nationally in the Junior Cup, that's gone. They all play in the East of Scotland through the Region wide competitions, that's gone. They also largely play the North already as 8/16 mix it up once the North & Tayside Cup gets to the last 16 so that's nothing new for them.
And would all the East clubs join? Anytime someone brings up Thornton Hibs as a candidate for applying, someone says they might not get in because of their ground. Seen the same said of Linlithgow Rose CFC now.
 

If you want to run/watch a football club in the north east of Scotland within the pyramid then you play in the appropriate feeder, if not stay junior.
Its time the SJFA was scrapped and the Scottish cup is meaningless now so who cares? An all encompassing non-league trophy would be far better.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

There's no issue with the SoS, you're the only one bringing this up.

There is an obvious issue with having what is effectively a D&G amateur league at tier 6. Keeping them there is about expediency nothing else. If expediency can apply in the west on feeders, why does idealism have to be the name of the day in the east? There is also an issue with how Tayside is being handled in all of this. The best Tayside junior teams have a strong record in the junior cup in recent decades and it's reasonable to expect a club like Lochee United to be able to progress to the LL and do well. Suggesting they hook up with a north region that is not keen on pushing forward on being an active tier 6 and has a pathetic record in junior cup context, and having them possibly wind up with away games in Brora and Wick eventually in tier 5 because clubs in the Edinburgh area, West Lothian and Stirlingshire didn't fancy the drive involved and were able to use the Tay bridge boundary as an excuse to jettison them looks more than a wee bit selfish at this point.

[PRICEY]

So the EOSL runs from the Tayside boundary line to the Tweed, but WOSL league would run from the Tayside boundary to just south of Kilmarnock?.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

There is an obvious issue with having what is effectively a D&G amateur league at tier 6. Keeping them there is about expediency nothing else. If expediency can apply in the west on feeders, why does idealism have to be the name of the day in the east? There is also an issue with how Tayside is being handled in all of this. The best Tayside junior teams have a strong record in the junior cup in recent decades and it's reasonable to expect a club like Lochee United to be able to progress to the LL and do well. Suggesting they hook up with a north region that is not keen on pushing forward on being an active tier 6 and has a pathetic record in junior cup context, and having them possibly wind up with away games in Brora and Wick eventually in tier 5 because clubs in the Edinburgh area, West Lothian and Stirlingshire didn't fancy the drive involved and were able to use the Tay bridge boundary as an excuse to jettison them looks more than a wee bit selfish at this point.

There is only an obvious issue amongst a couple of posters on Pie & Bovril.  At the risk of repeating myself, the status of the SoS has NEVER been an issue at PWG, so one presumes that nobody has an issue with it, or at the very least, have bigger fish to fry before even considering whether it needs reviewed.

It's a red herring to muddy the waters, as you have just demonstrated.

Tayside is a completely unrelated issue and yes, they fall into the HL area as has ben discussed to death, the boundary line exists.   Historically, they never played Edinburgh or West Lothian clubs before 2002 out with the Junior Cup (they also entered the East of Scotland Cup in 2002 for the first time since about 1890 something), and they continue to play North Region clubs in a regional cup.  They have no historical attachment to playing in the same set-up as Lothians clubs, and probably should have gone north in the 2002 shake up.

If the PGB move the boundary line, then that's another discussion entirely.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

There is an obvious issue with having what is effectively a D&G amateur league at tier 6. Keeping them there is about expediency nothing else. If expediency can apply in the west on feeders, why does idealism have to be the name of the day in the east? There is also an issue with how Tayside is being handled in all of this. The best Tayside junior teams have a strong record in the junior cup in recent decades and it's reasonable to expect a club like Lochee United to be able to progress to the LL and do well. Suggesting they hook up with a north region that is not keen on pushing forward on being an active tier 6 and has a pathetic record in junior cup context, and having them possibly wind up with away games in Brora and Wick eventually in tier 5 because clubs in the Edinburgh area, West Lothian and Stirlingshire didn't fancy the drive involved and were able to use the Tay bridge boundary as an excuse to jettison them looks more than a wee bit selfish at this point.

Well why should clubs from tier 5 who play in Ayrshire etc when the west joins the pyramid have to travel to Lochee etc just because Lochee don’t fancy playing in their rightful league? Looks more than a wee bit selfish at this point.
If Lochee could progress to the LL in your eyes then im sure they’ll do well in the HL also.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Well why should clubs from tier 5 who play in Ayrshire etc when the west joins the pyramid have to travel to Lochee etc just because Lochee don’t fancy playing in their rightful league? Looks more than a wee bit selfish at this point.
If Lochee could progress to the LL in your eyes then im sure they’ll do well in the HL also.

As things stand they could play against Tayport eventually in that sort of context, which would be much the same travel distance. Drawing the line where it is made sense when there were no nonleague senior clubs involved between Cove and Burntisland, but once present and former junior clubs are on board it's more than a wee bit bizarre to have Scone on one side of the divide and Luncarty on the other to name just one example. The natural break point where there are no close neighbours to disrupt is a wee bit further north where the Grampian mountains start.

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand they could play against Tayport eventually in that sort of context, which would be much the same travel distance. Drawing the line where it is made sense when there were no nonleague senior clubs involved between Cove and Burntisland, but once present and former junior clubs are on board it's more than a wee bit bizarre to have Scone on one side of the divide and Luncarty on the other to name just one example. The natural break point where there are no close neighbours to disrupt is a wee bit further north where the Grampian mountains start.

What's the difference between that and camelon and dunipace were historically in different leagues. Dunipace and kilsyth now

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand they could play against Tayport eventually in that sort of context, which would be much the same travel distance. Drawing the line where it is made sense when there were no nonleague senior clubs involved between Cove and Burntisland, but once present and former junior clubs are on board it's more than a wee bit bizarre to have Scone on one side of the divide and Luncarty on the other to name just one example. The natural break point where there are no close neighbours to disrupt is a wee bit further north where the Grampian mountains start.

Hart hill and shotts. Fauldhouse and forth all next to each other