AsimButtHitsASix Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Pyramidic said: The Tayside clubs have plenty of time at the moment to reflect on where they want to be for the 2021/22 season. There appear to be a multitude of options: 1. Remain in the ERJFA. 2. Form the Tayside Junior League. 3. Form a new Senior League - Tayside Senior League - Scottish Midland League - Mid-Scotland League - Central Scotland League 4. Amalgamate with NRJFA. 5. Feed into the Highland League pyramid. 6. Feed into the Lowland League pyramid. 7. Join the EOSFL. My position is changing on this one and I now think that we should form the Mid-Scotland League and feed into the Lowland League pyramid. This could be directly into the Lowland League or possibly into the EOSFL Premier. EOSFL admin to be kingmaker again and help form the league. Any thoughts? Can they feed into the Lowland League? There's a three way split in the South (West, East, South) so a three way split in the North (Tayside/Aberdeenshire/Highland) would suit me 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 22 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: The Tayside clubs have plenty of time at the moment to reflect on where they want to be for the 2021/22 season. There appear to be a multitude of options: 1. Remain in the ERJFA. 2. Form the Tayside Junior League. 3. Form a new Senior League - Tayside Senior League - Scottish Midland League - Mid-Scotland League - Central Scotland League 4. Amalgamate with NRJFA. 5. Feed into the Highland League pyramid. 6. Feed into the Lowland League pyramid. 7. Join the EOSFL. My position is changing on this one and I now think that we should form the Mid-Scotland League and feed into the Lowland League pyramid. This could be directly into the Lowland League or possibly into the EOSFL Premier. EOSFL admin to be kingmaker again and help form the league. Any thoughts? In following the rumours around Brechin trying to get into the Lowland League. One of the things the Lowland League were supposed to ask for was travelling expenses for changing the boundary. Which was rejected. Having also advertised for applications to the Lowland League using the existing boundary, i'm not too sure how keen the Lowland League are in accepting a boundary change without something in exchange. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: The Tayside clubs have plenty of time at the moment to reflect on where they want to be for the 2021/22 season. There appear to be a multitude of options: 1. Remain in the ERJFA. 2. Form the Tayside Junior League. 3. Form a new Senior League - Tayside Senior League - Scottish Midland League - Mid-Scotland League - Central Scotland League 4. Amalgamate with NRJFA. 5. Feed into the Highland League pyramid. 6. Feed into the Lowland League pyramid. 7. Join the EOSFL. My position is changing on this one and I now think that we should form the Mid-Scotland League and feed into the Lowland League pyramid. This could be directly into the Lowland League or possibly into the EOSFL Premier. EOSFL admin to be kingmaker again and help form the league. Any thoughts? If the long term aim in Scottish football is to have all clubs above amateur level in the pyramid, with equal opportunities to gain promotion, relegation, Scottish cup entry, grants for ground improvements etc; which I think it is, then we have to accept that there are way more clubs in the south of the country than north, and always will be. So Tayside should feed into the north, as the alternative makes the imbalance even greater and more unworkable. So either a new Tayside league or an amalgation with the NRJFA as it's southern division make sense, surely. Edited May 13, 2020 by Bad Wolf 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black & Red Socks Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 If the long term aim in Scottish football is to have all clubs above amateur level in the pyramid, with equal opportunities to gain promotion, relegation, Scottish cup entry, grants for ground improvements etc; which I think it is, then we have to accept that there are way more clubs in the south of the country than north, and always will be. So Tayside should feed into the north, as the alternative makes the imbalance even greater and more unworkable. So either a new Tayside league or an amalgation with the NRJFA as it's southern division make sense, surely. Exactly this. To create further imbalance in an already imbalanced pyramid only limits the possibility of progression from within the area presently covered by the lowland league and its three feeders. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 43 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said: If the long term aim in Scottish football is to have all clubs above amateur level in the pyramid, with equal opportunities to gain promotion, relegation, Scottish cup entry, grants for ground improvements etc; which I think it is, then we have to accept that there are way more clubs in the south of the country than north, and always will be. So Tayside should feed into the north, as the alternative makes the imbalance even greater and more unworkable. So either a new Tayside league or an amalgation with the NRJFA as it's southern division make sense, surely. I would be making the same case as Bad Wolf a few months ago as a committed Pyramidista. However. I begin to question whether it is a sound strategy for us to be seeking a perfect Pyramid with 3 Leagues (including Tayside) feeding the Highland League, when Clubs around Dundee feel closely assimilated with the Lowland area and not the Highlands. A working Pyramid needs to be built on consensus (in the absence of any innovative dictates from the SFA) and I think we are all going to have to accept that Dundee clubs see their future linked to the Lowland area. To ignore this issue could see the Tayside question remaining in a permanent state of limbo. It is in my view unrealistic for us to impose our solution on clubs as a simple excercise of geographical sub-divisions based on the current arbitrary HL/LL boundary. If the Dundee clubs see their future as linked to the Lowland area the issue then arises how to manage that link without upsetting the current balance of the EOSFL clubs and the Lowland pyramid in general. The answer is clearly to have 4 leagues feeding the Lowland League: - East of Scotland FL - West of Scotland FL - South of Scotland FL - Mid- Scotland FL The possibility of 4 teams representing the above leagues playing off for places in the Lowland League would become a very attractive proposition at the end of each season. Similarly we could have the NCL and NOSFL playing off for places in the Highland League. Perfect symmetry with 3 leagues feeding each of the LL and HL should not be a Red-line requirement. It is not beyond the wit of man (or woman) to come up with a working operational solution for the 2021/22 season. But it does require some real leadership at the present time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Just now, Pyramidic said: I would be making the same case as Bad Wolf a few months ago as a committed Pyramidista. However. I begin to question whether it is a sound strategy for us to be seeking a perfect Pyramid with 3 Leagues (including Tayside) feeding the Highland League, when Clubs around Dundee feel closely assimilated with the Lowland area and not the Highlands. A working Pyramid needs to be built on consensus (in the absence of any innovative dictates from the SFA) and I think we are all going to have to accept that Dundee clubs see their future linked to the Lowland area. To ignore this issue could see the Tayside question remaining in a permanent state of limbo. It is in my view unrealistic for us to impose our solution on clubs as a simple excercise of geographical sub-divisions based on the current arbitrary HL/LL boundary. If the Dundee clubs see their future as linked to the Lowland area the issue then arises how to manage that link without upsetting the current balance of the EOSFL clubs and the Lowland pyramid in general. The answer is clearly to have 4 leagues feeding the Lowland League: - East of Scotland FL - West of Scotland FL - South of Scotland FL - Mid- Scotland FL The possibility of 4 teams representing the above leagues playing off for places in the Lowland League would become a very attractive proposition at the end of each season. Similarly we could have the NCL and NOSFL playing off for places in the Highland League. Perfect symmetry with 3 leagues feeding each of the LL and HL should not be a Red-line requirement. It is not beyond the wit of man (or woman) to come up with a working operational solution for the 2021/22 season. But it does require some real leadership at the present time. You make quite a persuasive case, the perfect pyramid probably doesn't exist except on paper, and compromises will undoubtedly have to be made. I must confess that the sheer intransigence of the Tayside clubs sticks in my throat somewhat, so I'm perhaps being a tad unfair to them when insisting they should go north. Three feeders to the HL and four to the LL would be workable, and perhaps as optimal as it could ever get. I've always considered the possibility of a three way split at Tier 5 as the ultimate aim (N, SE, SW), but your post makes me wonder about doing it four ways, many years down the line, with Fife and Tayside providing the central or midland league at a higher level than your suggestion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 43 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: I would be making the same case as Bad Wolf a few months ago as a committed Pyramidista. However. I begin to question whether it is a sound strategy for us to be seeking a perfect Pyramid with 3 Leagues (including Tayside) feeding the Highland League, when Clubs around Dundee feel closely assimilated with the Lowland area and not the Highlands. A working Pyramid needs to be built on consensus (in the absence of any innovative dictates from the SFA) and I think we are all going to have to accept that Dundee clubs see their future linked to the Lowland area. To ignore this issue could see the Tayside question remaining in a permanent state of limbo. It is in my view unrealistic for us to impose our solution on clubs as a simple excercise of geographical sub-divisions based on the current arbitrary HL/LL boundary. If the Dundee clubs see their future as linked to the Lowland area the issue then arises how to manage that link without upsetting the current balance of the EOSFL clubs and the Lowland pyramid in general. The answer is clearly to have 4 leagues feeding the Lowland League: - East of Scotland FL - West of Scotland FL - South of Scotland FL - Mid- Scotland FL The possibility of 4 teams representing the above leagues playing off for places in the Lowland League would become a very attractive proposition at the end of each season. Similarly we could have the NCL and NOSFL playing off for places in the Highland League. Perfect symmetry with 3 leagues feeding each of the LL and HL should not be a Red-line requirement. It is not beyond the wit of man (or woman) to come up with a working operational solution for the 2021/22 season. But it does require some real leadership at the present time. Except its not clear. If its true that the Lowland League were asking for travelling expenses for Brechin City into the league, you can tell they might negotiate the boundary. But only for something in exchange which a Mid-Scotland league doesn't offer. There would be no clubs relegated to it from the current LL membership. So all that's happening is slicing promotion opportunities at Tier 6 even further. It would also be a league without any depth like the SoSFL unless you cause havoc to the EoSFL by moving Fife & Perthshire clubs into it. Which is what the Lochee secretary(?) was suggesting with the midlands league idea. Even if you could then eek out two divisions you'd have Brechin Vics, Forfar Albion, Arbroath Vics travelling down to the South of Fife in the lower division. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: Except its not clear. If its true that the Lowland League were asking for travelling expenses for Brechin City into the league, you can tell they might negotiate the boundary. But only for something in exchange which a Mid-Scotland league doesn't offer. There would be no clubs relegated to it from the current LL membership. So all that's happening is slicing promotion opportunities at Tier 6 even further. It would also be a league without any depth like the SoSFL unless you cause havoc to the EoSFL by moving Fife & Perthshire clubs into it. Which is what the Lochee secretary(?) was suggesting with the midlands league idea. Even if you could then eek out two divisions you'd have Brechin Vics, Forfar Albion, Arbroath Vics travelling down to the South of Fife in the lower division. There are a numbers of advantages in the suggested model: 1. It gets things moving and takes us out of the limbo that we currently face. 2. It does not have a huge impact on the Lowland League or EOSFL. (I certainly would not advocate movement of existing Fife and Angus clubs from EOSFL to the Mid-Scotland League). 3. It is unlikely that Tayside clubs will have a significant impact on promotion play-offs to the Lowland League. But it does offer that important incentive for Tayside clubs to improve and possibly advance. 4. It is inclusive and gets things moving. It does not rule out future changes and both the M-SFL and SOSFL may at a future date prefer to feed into an appropriate division of the EOSFL and WOSFL respectively. I think that the suggestion or requirement for financial bargaining and monetary incentives is the wrong way forward. Perhaps the “greater good” of Scottish Semi-professional football should be the carrot on offer. Edited May 13, 2020 by Pyramidic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traffordab Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Black & Red Socks said: Exactly this. To create further imbalance in an already imbalanced pyramid only limits the possibility of progression from within the area presently covered by the lowland league and its three feeders. Let's be honest the imbalance is horrendous and is another issue to add to the list that make this a 'pyramid' just a label to make a certain few people , a certain few clubs feel better . A joke really. Attitudes in the spfl are this 'pyramid ' what?? Who cares about that we don't just do what's right for us. A sham that will forever hold things up and keep the drawbridge all but shut. Edited May 13, 2020 by traffordab -6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 20 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: There are a numbers of advantages in the suggested model: 1. It gets things moving and takes us out of the limbo that we currently face. 2. It does not have a huge impact on the Lowland League or EOSFL. (I certainly would not advocate movement of existing Fife and Angus clubs from EOSFL to the Mid-Scotland League). 3. It is unlikely that Tayside clubs will have a significant impact on promotion play-offs to the Lowland League. But it does offer that important incentive for Tayside clubs to improve and possibly advance. 4. It is inclusive and gets things moving. It does not rule out future changes and both the M-SFL and SOSFL may at a future date prefer to feed into an appropriate division of the EOSFL and WOSFL respectively. I think that the suggestion or requirement for financial bargaining and monetary incentives is the wrong way forward. Perhaps the “greater good” of Scottish Semi-professional football should be the carrot on offer. The time has passed on a Tier 6 Tayside or Midland league under the Lowland League. If they end up joining on that side it would be at the bottom of the EoSFL. Otherwise its a league of their own under the Highland League. Everyone paints the Tayside as this big issue, but its not. You've got 32 North Region clubs sitting outside of the pyramid and another 12 "West Lothian" sitting out even though most of their traditional rivals joined the EoSFL years ago now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: The time has passed on a Tier 6 Tayside or Midland league under the Lowland League. If they end up joining on that side it would be at the bottom of the EoSFL. Source? If this is the case then it is not worth extending this debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 58 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: Source? If this is the case then it is not worth extending this debate. its kind of hard to find a source on an opinion, i'll give it a go. https://purefitbaw.com/2020/02/26/the-pyramid-conundrum/ Interview with Lowland League Chair. Quote “It’s been obvious for some time that there are geographical gaps in the pyramid system. We are paying particular attention to the gap in our area, the West”. Lowland League chairperson George Fraser has been the SLFL’s representative throughout the PWG process, having taken up the mantle with regards balancing our pyramid in the region. “We want a fully functioning pyramid, affording all clubs in all grades the opportunity to participate at a level to which they aspire. A North league would complete the geographical anomalies which currently exist.” http://slfl.co.uk/pyramid-statement-2/ Update on the creation of the WoSFL signed off by both the Lowland and EoSFL. Quote This plan is to allow every Club at all grades in the SLFL area the opportunity to progress through the Pyramid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimi Shandrix Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Pyramidic said: There are a numbers of advantages in the suggested model: 1. It gets things moving and takes us out of the limbo that we currently face. 2. It does not have a huge impact on the Lowland League or EOSFL. (I certainly would not advocate movement of existing Fife and Angus clubs from EOSFL to the Mid-Scotland League). 3. It is unlikely that Tayside clubs will have a significant impact on promotion play-offs to the Lowland League. But it does offer that important incentive for Tayside clubs to improve and possibly advance. 4. It is inclusive and gets things moving. It does not rule out future changes and both the M-SFL and SOSFL may at a future date prefer to feed into an appropriate division of the EOSFL and WOSFL respectively. I think that the suggestion or requirement for financial bargaining and monetary incentives is the wrong way forward. Perhaps the “greater good” of Scottish Semi-professional football should be the carrot on offer. My personal view is to go north as opposed to south and the numbers suggest that would be the sensible thing to do. Six and half a dozen in terms of travel for the Tayside teams. I would take issue with point 3. Lochee Utd, Carnoustie and Broughty would do well in any league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 26 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: its kind of hard to find a source on an opinion, i'll give it a go. https://purefitbaw.com/2020/02/26/the-pyramid-conundrum/ Interview with Lowland League Chair Thanks. Very good article on The Pyramid Conundrum. However, the position remains very nebulous and I think you are working on assumptions rather than facts. The Tayside Question needs to be quickly sorted out. I have tried to provide "food for thought". It needs a local club to take up the banner with an articulate and committed lead spokesman. The Tayside clubs have the opportunity to sort out their own future as a Senior League. Whether this is within the Highland League Pyramid or Lowland League pyramid time will tell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jimi Shandrix said: My personal view is to go north as opposed to south and the numbers suggest that would be the sensible thing to do. Six and half a dozen in terms of travel for the Tayside teams. I would take issue with point 3. Lochee Utd, Carnoustie and Broughty would do well in any league. Lochee to Wick 4 h 33 min (235.7 mi) via A9 Lochee to Dalbeattie 2 h 55 min (164.2 mi) via M90 Love to see Lochee Utd playing at Tier 5 north or south! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimi Shandrix Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: Lochee to Wick 4 h 33 min (235.7 mi) via A9 Lochee to Dalbeattie 2 h 55 min (164.2 mi) via M90 Love to see Lochee Utd playing at Tier 5 north or south! That is the extreme. With the new Aberdeen by-pass mostly 90 mins up the road. Less chance as well of getting stuck in traffic. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: Thanks. Very good article on The Pyramid Conundrum. However, the position remains very nebulous and I think you are working on assumptions rather than facts. The Tayside Question needs to be quickly sorted out. I have tried to provide "food for thought". It needs a local club to take up the banner with an articulate and committed lead spokesman. The Tayside clubs have the opportunity to sort out their own future as a Senior League. Whether this is within the Highland League Pyramid or Lowland League pyramid time will tell. They can sort their own future as a senior league. Everything after that becomes upto others. You've had the SFA putting their foot down with regards to the number of clubs it will cover under their JPP for Tier 6 status. Its never been clear if the 64 was just for the lowland league or all of Tier 6 since most of the PWG considered the Highland area as an after thought. The boundary change then comes down to the SPFL-SFA-HFL-LFL Inclusion in the Lowland League Playoff comes down to SFA-LFL-EoSFL-SoSFL & soon to be WoSFL. 22 minutes ago, Pyramidic said: Lochee to Wick 4 h 33 min (235.7 mi) via A9 Lochee to Dalbeattie 2 h 55 min (164.2 mi) via M90 Love to see Lochee Utd playing at Tier 5 north or south! Its one game a season. Wick-Brora-Fort William etc. Dalbeattie-Gretna-Berwick-Gala-VoL. They both have flaws. If Tayside was introduced into the Highland League as a feeder at least it would be as its own league, or by a merger with the North Juniors. There's currently 14 North Juniors that are from the City of Aberdeen or South of it. Which means there would always been enough teams for the lowest tier to have the same kind of travel for the smaller clubs that existed in the ERJFA North Division. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: They can sort their own future as a senior league. Everything after that becomes upto others. You've had the SFA putting their foot down with regards to the number of clubs it will cover under their JPP for Tier 6 status. Its never been clear if the 64 was just for the lowland league or all of Tier 6 since most of the PWG considered the Highland area as an after thought. The boundary change then comes down to the SPFL-SFA-HFL-LFL Inclusion in the Lowland League Playoff comes down to SFA-LFL-EoSFL-SoSFL & soon to be WoSFL. Its one game a season. Wick-Brora-Fort William etc. Dalbeattie-Gretna-Berwick-Gala-VoL. They both have flaws. If Tayside was introduced into the Highland League as a feeder at least it would be as its own league, or by a merger with the North Juniors. There's currently 14 North Juniors that are from the City of Aberdeen or South of it. Which means there would always been enough teams for the lowest tier to have the same kind of travel for the smaller clubs that existed in the ERJFA North Division. Good points as always. The Tayside clubs appear to have been sitting on the fence far too long watching the world change around them. It really is time for them to sit down together and map out their future in Senior Football. I agree that the other parties you have mentioned will play a significant part in setting out the limitations of the changes that can be made. However, first and foremost the clubs need an agreed strategy that will enable them to work together with a coherent voice. Club officials ranting about the way changes have materialised will now achieve very little. The Tayside clubs need to properly plan their way ahead to cover the new era that they face - a road map (north or south?). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Tayside would be much better starting their own league, on a par with the North juniors feeding into the HFL. give it a few years and once promotion relegation starts to kick in the HFL will become very Aberdeen centric to start with and over time East coast centric (ie Aberdeen / Dundee / Angus) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Just some quick, back of a fag packet, maths Average journey time to an away game for Lochee in the Lowland League (using all current 16 members) = 83 miles Average journey time to an away game for Lochee in the Highland Leauge (using all current 17 members) = 127 miles Average journey time to an away game for Lochee in their current league = 11 miles (fellow Dundee clubs were given travel time of 0 miles) Average journey time to an away game for Lochee in 2018 (Last year of East Region Super before EoS exodus) = 44 miles No matter where they go if they do join the pyramid, get licensed and promoted, they're in for a big jump in petrol money. An extra 50 miles for each away game was a bigger jump than I was expecting if they went North. Although you'd imagine a few outliers in the North might leave the Highland League in the next few years one way or another (Brora/Fort William for instance) the flip side is the outliers in the Lowland League will also be gone in due course as well (Dalbeattie/Gretna/Vale of Leithen) But, even then, it's swings and roundabouts. There aren't many clubs you can foresee dropping from the SPFL from North of the Tay in the near future. Brechin are in trouble but Elgin aren't and, past them, who's next? Forfar? Cove? Peterhead? Unlikely anytime soon. Likewise there aren't many clubs who can come "up" from below the Highland League on Lochee's level. Banks O'Dee... maybe Culter or Hermes on a good day. I doubt they need to worry about Invergordon. Compare that to the Lowland League. Albion Rovers, Stirling and Cowdenbeath might be easier games to get to but will be challenging to go back up if they do come down. Stranraer and Annan could drag the distances further to the South/West as could teams coming up from the WoSFL from Ayrshire like Talbot or Kilwinning and they'd be a tougher challenge than Forres, Rothes and Clachnacuddin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.