Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

I might not be explaining this correctly but how they could do it would be similar to this years with minor alterations

110 clubs enter the competition - 42 league clubs, 18 Highland League and 16 Lowland league (if brechin go down and kelty went up for arguments sake) 29 licensed clubs plus Musselburgh east south shield winners, West champs, East champs and junior cup winners, amateur cup winners

Preliminary round 1 34 clubs would be in the hat 28 clubs play and 6 byes - 14 winners and 6 byes  

Preliminary Round 2 20 goes to 10 clubs - 10 go through to the 1st round proper

1st round  44 clubs down 22 - 18 highland league and 16 lowland league come in with the 10 preliminary round winners

2nd round   22 clubs  from previous round plus  10 league 2 clubs

3rd round 16 plus 6 championship clubs  plus 10 league 1 clubs

Round 4 Last 32- 12 premiership clubs and 4 championship clubs 16 clubs

In reality all that would change is highland and lowland champions appear in round 1 and league 1 clubs come in at round 3 instead of some coming in at round 2

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

Premiership clubs starting in the same round as everyone else isn't going to happen, let's get real. And should you really want a fixture like Celtic v Burntisland Shipyard? I've been to Lochee United v Burntisland Shipyard in the 1st preliminary round this season. That finished 7-0 and the only reason that the score wasn't higher, was because the pitch was awful due to it pouring down with rain so Lochee didn't want to take any unnecessary risks and slowed down considerably in the second half, otherwise I have no doubt the game would've ended in double figures. Imagine them playing Celtic...

Agree, never happen.

What would be good though is getting ALL non-league sides in at R1, so you're 1 win away from the chance of facing an SPFL side.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

7 minutes ago, Marten said:

Premiership clubs starting in the same round as everyone else isn't going to happen, let's get real. And should you really want a fixture like Celtic v Burntisland Shipyard? I've been to Lochee United v Burntisland Shipyard in the 1st preliminary round this season. That finished 7-0 and the only reason that the score wasn't higher, was because the pitch was awful due to it pouring down with rain so Lochee didn't want to take any unnecessary risks and slowed down considerably in the second half, otherwise I have no doubt the game would've ended in double figures. Imagine them playing Celtic...

Would be great craic! Also I'm sure Burntisland would accept the shellacking in return for the money they'd make out of it.

Naw happening tho' (yet...)

Edited February 27, 2020 by AsimButtHitsASix

[TFW]

I know when Talbot played at both Dundonald and Camelon this year, both gates were very good and that wasn't purely down to the travelling support although it was considerable. Do these two gates still remain their highest this season? If Bo'ness were to play either at the end of the season would they bring sufficient numbers to beat the Talbot crowds if promotion depended on it?

How do other clubs Scottish Cup gates compare to their league ones, as I assume the novelty of being in said Cup does bring out the fans rather more than it does for the league?

[AlanCamelonfan]

Just now, TFW said:

I know when Talbot played at both Dundonald and Camelon this year, both gates were very good and that wasn't purely down to the travelling support although it was considerable. Do these two gates still remain their highest this season? If Bo'ness were to play either at the end of the season would they bring sufficient numbers to beat the Talbot crowds if promotion depended on it?

How do other clubs Scottish Cup gates compare to their league ones, as I assume the novelty of being in said Cup does bring out the fans rather more than it does for the league?

the talbot game is our highest gate so far this season 600 and something cant remember the exact figure

[Robert James]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I completely agree with the view that if a club doesn't engage with the senior pyramid then they forfeit the right to compete in a senior competition.

That said, I agree that the Licencing categories really need looked at.  Entry level extends from League One all the way down to Burntisland Shipyard.  Maybe there needs to be a  "Basic" level which allows you to compete in the Scottish.

BM  yes and no IMO.

The "basic" level entry must  continue to include ALL Full & Associate SFA member clubs, who have a current SFA Licence.  This ensures that all Scottish Cup entrants, meet 'basic' standards.

I have no objection to the reigning Junior Cup winners, and the reigning  Scottish Amateur Cup winners being allowed to enter, but not the champions of leagues which are not within the pyramid.

Pending a review in (say) 3 years time (by which time the pyramid will have extended nationwide),  the winners of the existing designated 'senior' cups, should continue to have the right to enter the Scottish Cup. However, a review of 'senior' cup competitions, should be carried out, and possibly be revised, as appropriate, in relation to an expanded pyramid (by 2024).

[AlanCamelonfan]

6 minutes ago, TFW said:

I know when Talbot played at both Dundonald and Camelon this year, both gates were very good and that wasn't purely down to the travelling support although it was considerable. Do these two gates still remain their highest this season? If Bo'ness were to play either at the end of the season would they bring sufficient numbers to beat the Talbot crowds if promotion depended on it?

How do other clubs Scottish Cup gates compare to their league ones, as I assume the novelty of being in said Cup does bring out the fans rather more than it does for the league?

just furthering onto that when we played linlithgow in the league and cup within 2 weeks apart at home our crowd was 380. We havent played boness at home but the crowd was 320 down at bo'ness. If we manage to beat hill of beath we face Kelty Hearts at home in south challenge cup that may attract a decent crowd as im sure hill of beath vs kelty would too

[Robert James]

17 minutes ago, Marten said:

Premiership clubs starting in the same round as everyone else isn't going to happen, let's get real. And should you really want a fixture like Celtic v Burntisland Shipyard? I've been to Lochee United v Burntisland Shipyard in the 1st preliminary round this season. That finished 7-0 and the only reason that the score wasn't higher, was because the pitch was awful due to it pouring down with rain so Lochee didn't want to take any unnecessary risks and slowed down considerably in the second half, otherwise I have no doubt the game would've ended in double figures. Imagine them playing Celtic...

Even worse if its the other way around, ie : Burntisland v Celtic or Rangers.  Imagine the chaos and H&S  implications of hoards of Old Firm fans turn up (without tickets) at very small grounds.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

4 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Even worse if its the other way around, ie : Burntisland v Celtic or Rangers.  Imagine the chaos and H&S  implications of hoards of Old Firm fans turn up (without tickets) at very small grounds.

I'd presume if the draw brought out Burntisland v Celtic then Shipyard would be looking to play it at Starks or somewhere like that to maximise their income.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I'd presume if the draw brought out Burntisland v Celtic then Shipyard would be looking to play it at Starks or somewhere like that to maximise their income.

Yes I agree with you, that playing at an alternative venue could resolve the H&S  problem.

Regardless of this, the SPFL clubs won't support an "open" all-in Round 1.  The SFA voting rights, are as set out in a recent post, above.

Some change in the Scottish Cup format will be required for 2020/21, and a further revision may be needed the year after, if a number of ex-West Juniors enter the pyramid this year in a 'senior' WoSL, and get  licensed in time for season 2021/22.......... which should be achievable for many of the bigger clubs.

[Deeside Dynamo]

45 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

42-33 as things stand. Clubs outside the professional game board don't get to vote. So if all the SPFL clubd vote against it that's it.

Erm, naw.

All member clubs are entitled to a vote regardless whether you are a member of PGB or the NPGB.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

Erm, naw.

All member clubs are entitled to a vote regardless whether you are a member of PGB or the NPGB.

There was a motion at last years SFA AGM, all NEW members as of last year, below tier 5, have no voting rights.  Sadly it was passed almost unanimously.

I assume current members at that time below tier 5 retain the right for now.

[Junior Pub League]

Non league clubs go through a "Qualifying Cup" to get into the actual real Scottish Cup.

Clubs per round,

Final - 2

Semi - 4

Quarters - 8

Fourth - 16

Third - 32 ( Premier and Championship 22 and 10 clubs)

Second - 20 - (10 SPFL1 and 10 winner clubs)

First - 20 - (10 SPFL2 and 10) non league clubs)

Guaranteed 10 non league clubs in the draw for the first round proper every year, let the HL, LL and EoS then work out how they get to that 10.

Simples.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Junior Pub League said:

Non league clubs go through a "Qualifying Cup" to get into the actual real Scottish Cup.

Clubs per round,

Final - 2

Semi - 4

Quarters - 8

Fourth - 16

Third - 32 ( Premier and Championship 22 and 10 clubs)

Second - 20 - (10 SPFL1 and 10 winner clubs)

First - 20 - (10 SPFL2 and 10) non league clubs)

Guaranteed 10 non league clubs in the draw for the first round proper every year, let the HL, LL and EoS then work out how they get to that 10.

Simples.

All licenced members are entitled to enter the "real" Scottish Cup. The Qualifying cups were scrapped long ago.

[AlanCamelonfan]

18 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Yes I agree with you, that playing at an alternative venue could resolve the H&S  problem.

Regardless of this, the SPFL clubs won't support an "open" all-in Round 1.  The SFA voting rights, are as set out in a recent post, above.

Some change in the Scottish Cup format will be required for 2020/21, and a further revision may be needed the year after, if a number of ex-West Juniors enter the pyramid this year in a 'senior' WoSL, and get  licensed in time for season 2021/22.......... which should be achievable for many of the bigger clubs.

I posted earlier it wouldn't take that much change to continue with 2 preliminary rounds minor change being highland and lowland league winners entering at round 1 and all of league 2 entering in round 3 instead of some of them entering in round 2

[Junior Pub League]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

All licenced members are entitled to enter the "real" Scottish Cup. The Qualifying cups were scrapped long ago.

But qualifying (or preliminary or call them what you want) rounds are part of the "real" Scottish Cup.

Twenty non-league teams went out in them this season, anyone thinking that shouldn't continue to happen going forward is barking up the wrong tree.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Junior Pub League

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Junior Pub League said:

But qualifying (or preliminary or call them what you want) rounds are part of the "real" Scottish Cup, the idea that Camelon, Dunipace, Bo'ness, Haddington and Tranent should automatically get into the first round proper next season is clearly nonsense and if clubs have gone for a licence on that basis then they are clearly mistaken.

Non league clubs should have to qualify through prelim rounds for the right to play in the actual cup.  If the FA Cup can do it then there is no reason at all not to have a similar setup in Scotland.

What I said is that all full members of the SFA are entitled to enter the Scottish Cup (all licence holders are full members), there is no "pre-qualifying" element to the competition and there hasn't been for some time, there are Preliminary rounds with prize money attached (£3k per round).  Forget the English FA, nothing to do with Scottish football.

It's unlikely the format will see any radical change for next season, but that might come in future seasons and it would be good to see all clubs start at R1 if possible.

 

 

[Burnie_man]

30 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

But qualifying (or preliminary or call them what you want) rounds are part of the "real" Scottish Cup.

Twenty non-league teams went out in them this season, anyone thinking that shouldn't continue to happen going forward is barking up the wrong tree.

Since you edited your original post, the whole point of the discussion is that there is plenty opportunity to cut the Prelims down to one or even perhaps none without any major changes to the competition,  that would increase the chances of non-league v league fixtures which is a good thing. 

What tree should people be barking  up?

[Deeside Dynamo]

58 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There was a motion at last years SFA AGM, all NEW members as of last year, below tier 5, have no voting rights.  Sadly it was passed almost unanimously.

I assume current members at that time below tier 5 retain the right for now.

Sorry, I forgot about that.

If the member clubs retained their vote (which I believe they do) then there's a chance that if those clubs outwith the SPFL vote against them then the motion could pass.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Deeside Dynamo

[Che Dail]

11 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Cowdenbeaths Scottish cup gate of 767 for the match against Broxburn was more than  double their average league attendance  .  On the other hand Arbroaths attendance for the home game against Auchinleck Talbot seems to be lower than 11 out of 12 home league games played so far this season.

 

 

 

 

 

Just goes to prove......................

Arbroath game wasn't on a wet Tuesday night by any chance?