Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

So how would you describe them in their current context? I notice you haven't answered.

If I was discussing Dalkeith I'd describe them as a forward thinking Junior club looking to move themselves forward on and off the pitch.

If I didn't like the Pyramind and/or EoS and was looking to stick the boot in, I'd call them mediocre.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

Well I think the obvious point is that many of these clubs have really ballsed up any hope of sensible pyramid in the east. For 2019-20  and for seasons afterwards there'll be lots of mediocre clubs above better ones.

Maybe for 2019-20 there should be 4 regional divisions  in the EOS to help start sorting  the wheat from the chaff.

I think we dealt with that assertion earlier today.

[Khufu2]

 

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

If I was discussing Dalkeith I'd describe them as a forward thinking Junior club looking to move themselves forward on and off the pitch.

If I didn't like the Pyramind and/or EoS and was looking to stick the boot in, I'd call them mediocre.

Being forward thinking and mediocre aren't mutually exclusive qualities.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Khufu2

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

 

Being forward thinking and mediocre aren't mutually exclusive definitions.

You asked me how I'd describe them, I told you.  Maybe that's because I have no agenda to criticise any club that wants to move, unlike yourself.

[parsforlife]

Except  that we are not talking about per capita crowds attending football matches. We are talking about crowds. It is a nonsense argument to claim that having semi-pros travelling the length and breadth of Scotland to play in front of 600 is more justifiable than full time pros travelling the length and breadth of England  to play in front of 6,000 (though personally I think the fourth tier in England should also be regionalised).
If it ever happens, a real Scottish pyramid would benefit from regionalisation at a higher level than at present.
 

Well were talking about crowds per capita, your just unhappy that it's been proved quite comfortably that Scottish football does rather well at attracting fans to watch matches.

Stop treating national football like it means the same thing no matter what size of country you are talking about. The size of crowd where clubs stop playing within a region the size of Scotland is roughly the same in many other countries, funny that

[Marten]

21 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I was just thinking about the quality of clubs remaining in the East Juniors, in contrast to those who have bolted.

Ranking the clubs 1-48 by their current positions (points per game) and discounting the North section which isn't providing any clubs to the EOS then this is the outcome

Probable East Junior top division 2018-19 with their 2017-18 positions

2    Linlithgow Rose
3    Penicuik Athletic
4    Dundonald Bluebell
5    Broxburn Athletic
6    Lochee United
7    Bo'ness United
8    Broughty Athletic
11    Sauchie Juniors
12    Carnoustie Panmure
13    Newtongrange Star
14    Jeanfield Swifts
15    Kennoway Star Hearts
16    Forfar West End
18    Fauldhouse United
21    Tayport
22    Thornton Hibs
 

Average position 11

 

EOS 2018-19

1    Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic    
9    Hill of Beath Hawthorn    
10    Camelon Juniors    
17    Musselburgh Athletic    
19    Haddington Athletic    
20    Blackburn United    
25    Tranent Juniors    
29    Dalkeith Thistle    
34    Edinburgh United    
39    Crossgates Primrose    
44    Easthouses Lily Miners Welfare    
 

Average position 22.5

And remember, these clubs are actually strengthening(!) the EOS.

You are forgetting the point that the EOS will split into 2 divisions after a transitional season. Taking into account Dundonald Bluebell coming over in 2019, the EOS Premier could look something like this:

1. Vale of Leithen
2. Hawick Royal Albert
3. Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic
4. Dundonald Bluebell
5. Hale of Beath Hawthorn
6. Camelon Juniors
7. Musselburgh Athletic 
8. Haddington Athletic 
9. Blackburn United 
10. Lothian Thistle Hutchinson Vale
11. Preston Athletic
12. Leith Athletic
13. Peebles Rovers
14. Tynecastle

I wouldn't say that's a bad division and not much difference in quality with what remains in EOS. Obviously, promotion/relegation with LL  & Clydebank's entrance if there is no WOS being started can change things, but this at least gives a rough picture.

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

You asked me how I'd describe them, I told you.  Maybe that's because I have no agenda to criticise any club that wants to move, unlike yourself.

I was looking for a description of their on-the-field abilities and performances. You know, actually playing at football.

 

Choose one from the list

Excellent

Very Good

Good

Mediocre

Poor

Very poor

Terrible.

 

I chose "mediocre". What would you choose to describe their performances this season. If you don't like "mediocre" you can use a synonym - average, so-so, meh.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

I was looking for a description of their on-the-field abilities and performances. You know, actually playing at football.

 

Choose one from the list

Excellent

Very Good

Good

Mediocre

Poor

Very poor

Terrible.

 

I chose "mediocre". What would you choose to describe their performances this season. If you don't like "mediocre" you can use a synonym - average, so-so, meh.

.....and to think your sidekick was accusing pro-Pyramid posters earlier of - and I quote - "using a junior forum to mock, criticise and decry"

[Khufu2]

4 minutes ago, Marten said:

You are forgetting the point that the EOS will split into 2 divisions after a transitional season. Taking into account Dundonald Bluebell coming over in 2019, the EOS Premier could look something like this:

Do you think Dundonald Bluebell will be placed in the top division rather than the lower one?

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

.....and to think your sidekick was accusing pro-Pyramid posters earlier of - and I quote - "using a junior forum to mock, criticise and decry"

I'm neither mocking, criticising nor decrying.

You took umbrage at my description of Dalkeith as mediocre. I based that description on their footballing prowess. If you'd asked me about Bonnyrigg Rose I'd have said they were excellent.

You seem incredibly touchy and just a little defensive about anyone who is critical of the quality of many of the clubs already in the EOS and of quite a few of those joining it.  Don't be so sensitive.

 Why can't you tell us how you would describe Dalkeith's performances this season?

I'm guessing it's because you agree with me but can't bring yourself to do so.

[drs]

Funny how Isa and Khufu both stick to the exceptionally tired cliché of "mediocre" when trying to describe forward thinking clubs, its almost as if they cant accept clubs using the options open to them in terms of ground improvements, fixture lists, youth development, community involvement, opportunity to progress up the pyramid, Scottish Cup entry and of course club licencing are progressive clubs but in the world of the "grade" it somehow makes you a lesser club than those that choose to be left behind at the lower "grade".

Its an odd way to look at things, not sure how you can call the likes of Dalkeith a mediocre club when they are one of the few progressive clubs in the Juniors. But then again as we know by now for those that are being left behind by progress its not about improvement its about the "grade".

As with 99% of this thread I'm still waiting on information from Isa/Khufu about the benefits of staying in the Juniors as opposed to moving senior, come on lads you've had weeks but cant seem to come up with a solitary answer. Surely you can come up with something.

[Burnie_man]

I'm neither mocking, criticising nor decrying.
You took umbrage at my description of Dalkeith as mediocre. I based that description on their footballing prowess. If you'd asked me about Bonnyrigg Rose I'd have said they were excellent.
You seem incredibly touchy and just a little defensive about anyone who is critical of the quality of many of the clubs already in the EOS and of quite a few of those joining it.  Don't be so sensitive.
 Why can't you tell us how you would describe Dalkeith's performances this season?
I'm guessing it's because you agree with me but can't bring yourself to do so.

There's nothing further to add. You keep making a fool of yourself and keep digging that hole if you wish, fill your boots. It's telling you need to do that under a different ID.

[Goalie Hamish]

Think you would find that Talbot, as a club, show respect to everyone in football. Some of the derogatory stuff on here, aimed at Junior football and Talbot, from supporters of clubs who were happy to play at Junior level is actually astonishing! The level of contempt for a highly prestigious club tournament as the Junior Cup is honestly preposterous. The mocking nature, ironically from fans of clubs who couldn't win it, as inappropriate as it gets, and it would seem supported by the organ grinder who appears to recruit anti Junior monkeys with each passing day. Why are you on this forum?

What a fecking bawbag you are, monkeys wtf?

[AlanCamelonfan]

50 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I was just thinking about the quality of clubs remaining in the East Juniors, in contrast to those who have bolted.

Ranking the clubs 1-48 by their current positions (points per game) and discounting the North section which isn't providing any clubs to the EOS then this is the outcome

Probable East Junior top division 2018-19 with their 2017-18 positions

2    Linlithgow Rose
3    Penicuik Athletic
4    Dundonald Bluebell
5    Broxburn Athletic
6    Lochee United
7    Bo'ness United
8    Broughty Athletic
11    Sauchie Juniors
12    Carnoustie Panmure
13    Newtongrange Star
14    Jeanfield Swifts
15    Kennoway Star Hearts
16    Forfar West End
18    Fauldhouse United
21    Tayport
22    Thornton Hibs
 

Average position 11

 

EOS 2018-19

1    Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic    
9    Hill of Beath Hawthorn    
10    Camelon Juniors    
17    Musselburgh Athletic    
19    Haddington Athletic    
20    Blackburn United    
25    Tranent Juniors    
29    Dalkeith Thistle    
34    Edinburgh United    
39    Crossgates Primrose    
44    Easthouses Lily Miners Welfare    
 

Average position 22.5

And remember, these clubs are actually strengthening(!) the EOS.

What you mean is you have done it on possible points as camelon are above Hill obeath at the moment for a start

[HTG]

44 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I was just thinking about the quality of clubs remaining in the East Juniors, in contrast to those who have bolted.

Ranking the clubs 1-48 by their current positions (points per game) and discounting the North section which isn't providing any clubs to the EOS then this is the outcome

Probable East Junior top division 2018-19 with their 2017-18 positions

2    Linlithgow Rose
3    Penicuik Athletic
4    Dundonald Bluebell
5    Broxburn Athletic
6    Lochee United
7    Bo'ness United
8    Broughty Athletic
11    Sauchie Juniors
12    Carnoustie Panmure
13    Newtongrange Star
14    Jeanfield Swifts
15    Kennoway Star Hearts
16    Forfar West End
18    Fauldhouse United
21    Tayport
22    Thornton Hibs
 

Average position 11

 

EOS 2018-19

1    Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic    
9    Hill of Beath Hawthorn    
10    Camelon Juniors    
17    Musselburgh Athletic    
19    Haddington Athletic    
20    Blackburn United    
25    Tranent Juniors    
29    Dalkeith Thistle    
34    Edinburgh United    
39    Crossgates Primrose    
44    Easthouses Lily Miners Welfare    
 

Average position 22.5

And remember, these clubs are actually strengthening(!) the EOS.

The main point for me is that both of these leagues are sub-standard next season. That's because there is a finite amount of quality floating about in the east. The EoS is largely strengthened by the arrival of the junior teams. The East Juniors are largely weakened. Neither is optimal. But ... 

The junior teams opting to move have pretty much guaranteed their place in the pyramid  (where we're all heading anyway) whether at tier 6 or 7. The junior teams opting to remain have nothing guaranteed. Absolutely nothing. 

If Linlithgow and Bo'ness in particular  have called this wrong they'll be leagues and leagues below teams they were broadly on a par with over the last few years. Their support may be "traditionalists" (they may not be actually - who knows) but they'll be unforgiving towards those who have steered the clubs into a heap of trouble.  So the SJFA better produce the good or "the grade" will have all but buried those who chose to stay (from the top end at least).

I'd go as far as to say that if the SJFA don't deliver, I'll probably never watch another football match in Scotland at any level. I'll have been too sickened. So on a personal level, I hope they get their arse in gear and get it sorted. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

24 minutes ago, Marten said:

You are forgetting the point that the EOS will split into 2 divisions after a transitional season. Taking into account Dundonald Bluebell coming over in 2019, the EOS Premier could look something like this:

1. Vale of Leithen
2. Hawick Royal Albert
3. Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic
4. Dundonald Bluebell
5. Hale of Beath Hawthorn
6. Camelon Juniors
7. Musselburgh Athletic 
8. Haddington Athletic 
9. Blackburn United 
10. Lothian Thistle Hutchinson Vale
11. Preston Athletic
12. Leith Athletic
13. Peebles Rovers
14. Tynecastle

I wouldn't say that's a bad division and not much difference in quality with what remains in EOS. Obviously, promotion/relegation with LL  & Clydebank's entrance if there is no WOS being started can change things, but this at least gives a rough picture.

Dundonald wouldn' be in the premier for a start and shows how ludicrous these discussions get

 Because they are big in the old world they don't just jump in at the top in the next world

[Khufu2]

Just now, drs said:

Funny how Isa and Khufu both stick to the exceptionally tired cliché of "mediocre" when trying to describe forward thinking clubs, its almost as if they cant accept clubs using the options open to them in terms of ground improvements, fixture lists, youth development, community involvement, opportunity to progress up the pyramid, Scottish Cup entry and of course club licencing are progressive clubs but in the world of the "grade" it somehow makes you a lesser club than those that choose to be left behind at the lower "grade".

Its an odd way to look at things, not sure how you can call the likes of Dalkeith a mediocre club when they are one of the few progressive clubs in the Juniors. But then again as we know by now for those that are being left behind by progress its not about improvement its about the "grade".

As with 99% of this thread I'm still waiting on information from Isa/Khufu about the benefits of staying in the Juniors as opposed to moving senior, come on lads you've had weeks but cant seem to come up with a solitary answer. Surely you can come up with something.

Bonnyrigg are forward-thinking. Kelty are forward-thinking. Neither of them are mediocre. Dalkeith are  mediocre and have stolen a march on far better teams. They will probably end up higher in the pyramid than far better teams.  They'll probably still be mediocre though.

I'm not against a pyramid. I'm in favour of one that works. But the hotch-potch of clubs  that have jumped ship really have ballsed up any future pyramid for the majority of teams in the east. Or they have unless someone comes up with a formula which places successful clubs higher up the pyramid than mediocre ones. I'm more sanguine about the west where, if it gets off the ground, it'll be starting with a clean slate, with no one having jumped ship and clubs entering the pyramid at an appropriate level.

 

So, say for 2019-20 all the remaining junior clubs in the east commit themselves to the pyramid. Given that in the EOS  2018-19 is being used to sort out the wild mix of clubs into a tier 6 and tier 7 division for 2019-20, where would the top 16 from the East Juniors be placed?

[Khufu2]

7 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

What you mean is you have done it on possible points as camelon are above Hill obeath at the moment for a start

I mean what I said. "Points per game".

[superbigal]

The main point for me is that both of these leagues are sub-standard next season. That's because there is a finite amount of quality floating about in the east. The EoS is largely strengthened by the arrival of the junior teams. The East Juniors are largely weakened. Neither is optimal. But ... 

The junior teams opting to move have pretty much guaranteed their place in the pyramid  (where we're all heading anyway) whether at tier 6 or 7. The junior teams opting to remain have nothing guaranteed. Absolutely nothing. 

If Linlithgow and Bo'ness in particular  have called this wrong they'll be leagues and leagues below teams they were broadly on a par with over the last few years. Their support may be "traditionalists" (they may not be actually - who knows) but they'll be unforgiving towards those who have steered the clubs into a heap of trouble.  So the SJFA better produce the good or "the grade" will have all but buried those who chose to stay (from the top end at least).

I'd go as far as to say that if the SJFA don't deliver, I'll probably never watch another football match in Scotland at any level. I'll have been too sickened. So on a personal level, I hope they get their arse in gear and get it sorted. 

 

 

 

 

Yes I totally agree.

Tj will not be able to dine out on a new wos and nos league at tier 6 if/when he loses any chance of incorporating the east region remainers in some alternative eos.

I suspect only some huge gestire of goodwill from the newly enlarged eos is his only hope.

 

 

 

Add to this what to actually do with the minority who may still refuse to join ANY pyramid.

[Goalie Hamish]

You know what, I came late into this discussion and the contributions from most have been top class, better than most of the other crap on P and B, great info and opinion. I was curious about the whole Junior/Senior divide as I watch LL stuff occasionally as well as the odd Junior and eos. They're awe just football clubs tae me.

For me its a nae brainer everybody should be under the one umbrella, nae divide, nae SJFA, just clubs and leagues that go up up up or down down down. Nae glass ceilings or concrete floors.

Looks like it makes me a monkey or organ grinder or abhorrent or something. Its sad to see these clowns fecking up decent chat on the subject.

I sense great change taking place and a bit of excitement, these clowns will no change that.