Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Cowdenbeath used to draw crowds well into the thousands. East Fife have won more major trophies than Rangers (2012). That kind of thing.

East Fife won the last of their major trophies in 1954. Do you want to start comparing their loss of attendances with other Junior clubs winning Scottish Cups from that era, or just football as a whole. History's great when it was last season or in recent memory, but it gets to a point where it doesn't do you much good if you don't sustain some degree of relevance.

As for Cowdenbeath despite finishing as 42nd in the national leagues the past two years neither has been their worst attended season in the last 19. They seem to have a core support of 300 or so that's there through thick and thin in the 4th Tier.

[Jason King]

42 minutes ago, bendan said:

I still don't really get this. The league didn't exist at the original point when clubs were considering joining, so its make up was not known. You can say it would have been a leap in the dark, if you assume that junior clubs were incapable of having a chat with each other (which appears to be the case), but it seems blindingly obvious that if bigger clubs had applied the league would have been stronger.

That doesn't appear to have filtered into the Junior brain though, its why 5 years later we have the East jumping ship at an alarming rate and the West hoping that TJ isn't  selling them a pup.

 

[Jason King]

16 minutes ago, Marten said:

With pretty much all East juniors south of the Tay moving over, the LL will be much more attractive in a few years time. I'd fully expect Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, LTHV, Linlithgow etc. to all be there. Some less attractive teams will then drop out anyway. And that's even ignoring a WoSFL.

And maybe, just maybe the standard of the LL will be too much for the likes of Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg. We'll have to wait and see but its interesting times ahead for the soon to be former East clubs.

 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, bendan said:

I still don't really get this. The league didn't exist at the original point when clubs were considering joining, so its make up was not known. You can say it would have been a leap in the dark, if you assume that junior clubs were incapable of having a chat with each other (which appears to be the case), but it seems blindingly obvious that if bigger clubs had applied the league would have been stronger.

It would have been a leap in the dark towards something that wasn't very appealing anyway, while the status quo was obviously and considerably a lot better. As for "a bigger club would have made it stronger", that's true for the rest of the league, but not for the bigger club!

35 minutes ago, Marten said:

With pretty much all East juniors south of the Tay moving over, the LL will be much more attractive in a few years time. I'd fully expect Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, LTHV, Linlithgow etc. to all be there. Some less attractive teams will then drop out anyway. And that's even ignoring a WoSFL.

If the LL allows a decent number of promotion spots I think it'll be an improvement on the ER Superleague within a couple of years, and grow from there. I'd actually now prefer that there isn't a WoSL and we're all in the LL, but I don't see it happening soon. Maybe if the LL is a clear success it might lure a couple of bigger Junior teams from the west and that would start a similar tsunami to what we're seeing in the east.

28 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

East Fife won the last of their major trophies in 1954. Do you want to start comparing their loss of attendances with other Junior clubs winning Scottish Cups from that era, or just football as a whole. History's great when it was last season or in recent memory, but it gets to a point where it doesn't do you much good if you don't sustain some degree of relevance.

As for Cowdenbeath despite finishing as 42nd in the national leagues the past two years neither has been their worst attended season in the last 19. They seem to have a core support of 300 or so that's there through thick and thin in the 4th Tier.

Sorry, I'm not clear what the point is here, but I suppose a base of 400 (though much less in the past two years) for a league team from an area of 17,000 people is par for the course.

[Jason King]

The LL is already a "clear success" by any non-league standards, the Juniors let it get ahead of them and the East is now playing catchup - the west waits and watches.

[1320Lichtie]

I would argue that people aren't going. Considering their catchment and history, attendances at Stranraer, Airdrie, Clyde, Berwick, Stirling Albion, Cowdenbeath and Alloa are absolutely terrible. Alloa are one of the two best semi-pro clubs in the country, and in a season in which they've been promoted to a division in which there are genuinely big clubs, their "home" home crowd was about 400. 

Bottom line though... you like what L1 and L2 offers. I don't. Presumably we each prefer our own to following the Old Firm, otherwise we'd be doing that. We'd both be dismissed as "two men and a dug" fans by SPL fans. There are many ways to watch football and it's fine to like and dislike different things. Each to their own.

 

I’m sorry, but there’s a massive difference between the bottom of League 2 and the top of League 1. Massive.

 

One off cup games don’t mean anything.

 

As for Alloa’s attendances yes they are poor but they’re punching well above their weight and are extremely well run. The two part time teams directly below them, ourselves and Airdrie average around 800. You’ve picked Alloa to suit your argument.

 

There are a few clubs like Alloa who have done so very well off reasonably poor supports, Brechin/Cowden/Stranraer to an extent. All these teams show what can be achieved in the pyramid through being well run. It’s surely an argument for the pyramid instead of one against it.

[Kilbowie Benches]

2 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

I’m sorry, but there’s a massive difference between the bottom of League 2 and the top of League 1. Massive.

One off cup games don’t mean anything.

 

I’d doubt that!

All just part time diddy clubs.

[Pyramidic]

The pace of change at the moment is breathtaking.

It is interesting to speculate where we will be in a couple of seasons time.  Perhaps we will have a Promotion Play-off system to the Lowland League:

EoSL winner v WoSL runner up

WoSL winner v EoSL runner up

Respective winners are promoted (for 2 places in LL)

Losers play-off

Lowland League 14th* placed club v SoSL winner

Winner plays off against winner of Losers play-off above

Winner is promoted / retains place in LL (for 1 place in LL)

Just think of the attendances and interest that this form of play-off system might generate

[* 13th placed LL club if team is relegated to LL from the SPFL2 Play-offs]

So where would we be with this scenario at the end of the 2017/18 season?

Kelty Hearts v Beith Juniors

Auchinleck Talbot v Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

Winners promoted from 2 leg playoff

Losers play-off

Dalbeattie Star v Threave Rovers

Winners play-off against winners of Losers Final

Winner is promoted / retains place in LL

 

NB: Lots of assumptions in the above scenario in particular whether WRJFA Superleague clubs would come on board and have the courage to face EoSL champions and runners-up.

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Cowdenbeath used to draw crowds well into the thousands. East Fife have won more major trophies than Rangers (2012). That kind of thing.

 

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Cowdenbeath used to draw crowds well into the thousands. East Fife have won more major trophies than Rangers (2012). That kind of thing.

 

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

Cowdenbeath used to draw crowds well into the thousands. East Fife have won more major trophies than Rangers (2012). That kind of thing.

East Fife wasn't on the previous poster's  list!

Last time I watched Cowdenbeath their gates were down to 3 figures, and that was about 1971.

History doesn't draw crowds. Your example of Rangers proves that - huge crowds, but no history!

[1320Lichtie]

I’d doubt that!
All just part time diddy clubs.

In the grand scheme of things of course.

But the difference between the top 4 in League one and the bottom 4 in League 2 is massive. The squad and team we won League 2 with would’ve been battling it out to avoid relegation last season.

One off games don’t mean a thing. There’ll be hunners and thousands of examples of a team from a lower level getting a result from a team at a higher level. I will happily sit here and talk about December 2012 all day if you’d like.

[Whitburn Vale]

Check out the Lowland League thread guys,a wee update about their AGM.

Ian Maxwell and Rod Petrie from the SFA were present and the pyramid was one of the agenda's spoke about.

 

The LL to release details soon of any changes etc ......

 

[Marten]

43 minutes ago, GordonS said:

If the LL allows a decent number of promotion spots I think it'll be an improvement on the ER Superleague within a couple of years, and grow from there. I'd actually now prefer that there isn't a WoSL and we're all in the LL, but I don't see it happening soon. Maybe if the LL is a clear success it might lure a couple of bigger Junior teams from the west and that would start a similar tsunami to what we're seeing in the east.

Tbh, I think that's what will happen. There will almost surely be more relegation from the LL and the best east teams will get into the LL. The strongest East teams + the stronger LL teams (EK/Shire/Spartans etc.) and obviously Kelty will make an interesting league, which will eventually get west teams on board.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 hours ago, GordonS said:

Considering their catchment and history, attendances at Stranraer, Airdrie, Clyde, Berwick, Stirling Albion, Cowdenbeath and Alloa are absolutely terrible.

 

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

Cowdenbeath used to draw crowds well into the thousands. East Fife have won more major trophies than Rangers (2012). That kind of thing.

 

56 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Sorry, I'm not clear what the point is here, but I suppose a base of 400 (though much less in the past two years) for a league team from an area of 17,000 people is par for the course.

The point was that Cowdenbeath haven't drawn well into the thousands in over 19 years (and likely a lot longer than that I just don't have access to the figures). So using their attendances as a criticism of them is unfounded as you're basing it off of preconceived biases and historical standards that haven't applied for generations.

Right now their attendances could be better but they've fallen to the 4th Tier of Scottish Football following consecutive relegations. Take any club with the same sort of on the field performance they've had and attendances would suffer. Even with how bad they've been on the park, they're still not at historically low attendance levels.

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, Marten said:

Tbh, I think that's what will happen. There will almost surely be more relegation from the LL and the best east teams will get into the LL. The strongest East teams + the stronger LL teams (EK/Shire/Spartans etc.) and obviously Kelty will make an interesting league, which will eventually get west teams on board.

With the Lowland League AGM happening today we'll likely get an indication of what promtion and relegation between the LL/EoS/SoS is going to look like next year.

[Khufu2]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

And maybe, just maybe the standard of the LL will be too much for the likes of Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg. We'll have to wait and see but its interesting times ahead for the soon to be former East clubs.

 

The top 3/4 will give Bonnyrigg a run for their money,  The standard of the rest is significantly lower.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

I see BSC Glasgow's George Fraser has just been announced as the Lowland League's new Chairman. Running for that position could explain why they've gone quiet on the WoSFL front having been an instigator in its discussion.

http://slfl.co.uk/lowland-league-agm-update/

[Khufu2]

3 minutes ago, Snafu said:

I take it you have been to a few LL games so you have a decent assessment of the standard?

 

The league table tells it all. Mediocrity below the 4th place.

4	East Stirlingshire	30	19	7	4	67	31	7	5	3	28	19	12	2	1	39	12	+36	64
5	Selkirk	30	15	3	12	63	50	6	3	6	29	27	9	0	6	34	23	+13	48

 

Gross mediocrity below 5th place

6

Cumbernauld Colts

30

11

8

11

53

54

8

4

3

35

21

3

4

8

18

33

-1

41

Edited May 29, 2018 by Khufu2

[Stag Nation]

20 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

The league table tells it all. Mediocrity below the 4th place.

4	East Stirlingshire	30	19	7	4	67	31	7	5	3	28	19	12	2	1	39	12	+36	64
5	Selkirk	30	15	3	12	63	50	6	3	6	29	27	9	0	6	34	23	+13	48

 

Gross mediocrity below 5th place

6

Cumbernauld Colts

30

11

8

11

53

54

8

4

3

35

21

3

4

8

18

33

-1

41

Er .... the mid-table teams in every league are mediocre, by definition ( indifferent, average, middle-of-the-road, middling, medium, moderate).

[Khufu2]

2 minutes ago, Snafu said:

That doesn't tell me anything other than Shire were a better side over a season than Selkirk, it doesn't tell me anything about the standard of football. Since I've never been to a Lowland League game I'm asking you because you appear to know more than I do. I take it you have been to a few LL games?

What it tells you is the top 4 were far better than the 5th placed team and the 5th placed team was far better than the 6th.  Now if you think the top 4 are immensely superior to the best of the junior teams, you might be on to something because then the mediocrity of the LL might indeed be better than the best of the juniors .... but somehow I doubt it. How far do the mediocre LL clubs progress relative to the juniors in the Scottish Cup - not very far I would submit (despite getting a round start on them). What have been the results of head-to-heads between the mediocre LL teams and the juniors - advantage juniors I should think.

That Cove were unable to beat Cowdenbeath, yet able to beat Spartans easily suggests that the top LL teams really aren't that much better (if at all) than the top junior teams . And the mediocre ones most certainly aren't.

To the current 4 you can add Kelty next season. The season after you can add LTHV or Bonnyrigg, but  with 1 up 1 down it's going to take a while before all the mediocrity is weeded out and better teams replace them.

 

[Khufu2]

6 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

Er .... the mid-table teams in every league are mediocre, by definition ( indifferent, average, middle-of-the-road, middling, medium, moderate).

Mid table? I'm talking 5th.  There is a massive gap between 4/5 and 5/6/ That doesn't suggest a highly competitive league, it suggests one where a handful are a class apart.   A bit like the EoS where two were a class apart last season. Now you can only argue the midtable LL teams are superior to the best East junior teams if firstly you honestly think that the top 4 in the LL are markedly better than say Bonnyrigg.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Khufu2