Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

That red herring again.
The NRSJFA chose to stay outside and removed themselves from the negotiations. Which is exactly what I'm suggesting should happen with the ERSJFA.

How can it be a red herring when it is exactly what would have happened, yet you use it as an excuse to explain away why the WRJFA are not in the Pyramid right now due to the ERJFA being left behind, despite the NRJFA being left behind!  The EoS have been clear throughout the entirety of last season at PWG that they did not object to the WRJFA entering.

The SJFA/TJ had the option last season to accept the NRJFA's position (which they did), and at the same time tell the ERJFA that they would have to wait as their situation required further negotiation and a different solution. Meanwhile, they could have said to the WRJFA to go ahead, because there was absolutely no reason to hold them back another season. 

Why that didn't happen, and why the wanted desperately to peg the fate of the east to that of the west, but not the north, is open to speculation.

[GNU_Linux]

17 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

I'd even go as far as suggesting that now might be as good a time as any to resurrect the so called 'SOOPER-DOOPER' League Idea.
The WRSJFA and the ERSJFA form a league at tier 6 with tiers 7, 8, and 9 feeders below that.

Nae chance yer being serious with this.

[Beenzon-Toste]

How can it be a red herring when it is exactly what would have happened, yet you use it as an excuse to explain away why the WRJFA are not in the Pyramid right now due to the ERJFA being left behind, despite the NRJFA being left behind!  The EoS have been clear throughout the entirety of last season at PWG that they did not object to the WRJFA entering.
The SJFA/TJ had the option last season to accept the NRJFA's position (which they did), and at the same time tell the ERJFA that they would have to wait as their situation required further negotiation and a different solution. Meanwhile, they could have said to the WRJFA to go ahead, because there was absolutely no reason to hold them back another season. 
Why that didn't happen, and why the wanted desperately to peg the fate of the east to that of the west, but not the north, is open to speculation.

Gawd [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[Black & Red Socks]

42 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

It's easy to show support for something when you know that it cannot happen. It makes you look good to those outwith the process. Meanwhile, inwardly you're smiling, because you know that the SJFA couldn't go for this at the time because it meant leaving the ERSJFA on the outside looking in.
What I'm suggesting should happen now is that the ERSJFA should recognize that they are the stumbling block at present and should inform the SJFA that they wish to withdraw their interest at present to allow for the integration of the WRSJFA into the Pyramid.

I think your characterisation of the EoSFL's position is entirely wrong. However, I would agree that the ERSJFA accepting that their integration into the Pyramid requires a quite different solution and standing aside to allow WRSJFA integration to be achieved unhindered would resolve the current impasse, particularly as it would certainly appear to any outsider looking in that the remaining clubs in the ERSJFA have very little desire to be involved anyway.

Really, this proposition and what BM is saying should have happened at the end of last season (the SJFA inviting the ERSJFA to stand aside to allow WRSJFA integration into the Pyramid to happen) are pretty much the same so I can't quite see why you're both so keen to be at loggerheads with each other!!

Edited September 26, 2019 by Black & Red Socks

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Gawd

Feel free to disagree with anything in that post and explain why.

What you are now wanting as a way forward, was available to implement for this season.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Beenzon-Toste]

Feel free to disagree with anything in that post and explain why.
What you are now wanting as a way forward, was available to implement for this season.

Exactly that point.
It was not available to implement as long as the ERSJFA were still hoping to get in alongside the WRSJFA, the SOSL and the EOSL.
The SJFA had to negotiate for both of the regions entry. That is what they were instructed to do, not just a case of "See what you can get and we'll go along with that."
If that mandate is still in place, we will be at an impasse and that is why I'm hoping that the ERSJFA will look beyond their stalemate and actually instruct the SJFA to concentrate on entry for the WRSJFA.
What happens further down the line for the ERSJFA will need to be looked at, but at least if we can agree to get the WRSJFA in, progress will have been made, and a truer version of a Pyramid System will be in place.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Exactly that point.
It was not available to implement as long as the ERSJFA were still hoping to get in alongside the WRSJFA, the SOSL and the EOSL.
The SJFA had to negotiate for both of the regions entry. That is what they were instructed to do, not just a case of "See what you can get and we'll go along with that."
If that mandate is still in place, we will be at an impasse and that is why I'm hoping that the ERSJFA will look beyond their stalemate and actually instruct the SJFA to concentrate on entry for the WRSJFA.
What happens further down the line for the ERSJFA will need to be looked at, but at least if we can agree to get the WRSJFA in, progress will have been made, and a truer version of a Pyramid System will be in place.

Yip, and at any point the SJFA could have returned to their membership and advised them that the "done deal" wasn't going to happen, but WRJFA entry was still possible. That was clear at PWG, and made even clearer in April at the EoS meeting with IM/RD.   TJ didn't seek that, he could have called an EGM, or sought permission in another way if that was required however as we have already established, nobody seemed bothered at the NRJFA being dropped from the "all-in" mandate without discussions.  Anyway, round in circles stuff this.

If this position can be established between now and March/April, then the WRJFA can enter with no objections from LL, EoS, SoS.  The PWG can then turn their attentions to east and north issues for 21-22.

[Beenzon-Toste]

Yip, and at any point the SJFA could have returned to their membership and advised them that the "done deal" wasn't going to happen, but WRJFA entry was still possible. That was clear at PWG, and made even clearer in April at the EoS meeting with IM/RD.   TJ didn't seek that, he could have called an EGM, or sought permission in another way if that was required however as we have already established, nobody seemed bothered at the NRJFA being dropped from the "all-in" mandate without discussions.  Anyway, round in circles stuff this.
If this position can be established between now and March/April, then the WRJFA can enter with no objections from LL, EoS, SoS.  The PWG can then turn their attentions to east and north issues for 21-22.

I'm not disputing what went on at any PWG or EOSL meetings. I'll take your word on that.
But why can't you accept that the NRSJFA was not 'dropped' from any mandate?
If the SJFA accepted that the NRSJFA were not interested at the time, that didn't mean that the ERSJFA would have been happy to have been dropped from discussions without their permission. I don't know if the SJFA asked the ERSJFA to step aside to allow the WRSJFA to go it alone. It would appear not, if the reports from the SJFA AGM were correct.
I hope that the situation has now changed to allow the SJFA to reach an agreement about WRSJFA entry for next season.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

I'm not disputing what went on at any PWG or EOSL meetings. I'll take your word on that.
But why can't you accept that the NRSJFA was not 'dropped' from any mandate?
If the SJFA accepted that the NRSJFA were not interested at the time, that didn't mean that the ERSJFA would have been happy to have been dropped from discussions without their permission. I don't know if the SJFA asked the ERSJFA to step aside to allow the WRSJFA to go it alone. It would appear not, if the reports from the SJFA AGM were correct.
I hope that the situation has now changed to allow the SJFA to reach an agreement about WRSJFA entry for next season.

I guess the question is when is an "all-in" mandate not an "all-in" mandate? probably when one of the three constituent parts drops out.

There's a PWG minute from early January when the point about the WRJFA joining was made, and TJ was quoted as saying he wasn't prepared to ask ERJFA clubs to join the EoS in order to progress.  So he knew that admitting the WRJFA (alone) was possible at the turn of the year, but didn't act.  Not sure why he thought he would have to tell the ERJFA clubs to join the EoS, make of that what you will.

However, if the issue of ERJFA remains contentious (and it probably will without compromise), then WRJFA need to be allowed to go it alone, in fact it's surely in the power of the WRJFA to do just that anyway.

[LongTimeLurker]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I guess the question is when is an "all-in" mandate not an "all-in" mandate? probably when one of the three constituent parts drops out...

Given no change appears to have been made at the SJFA's 2019 AGM there is no reason to believe that the all-in mandate has changed in any way. It's easy enough to still include the north region in paper terms when there are no licensed clubs involved other than Banks o'Dee (in at the same time as Linlithgow Rose and hence don't appear to have to commit to the principle of progression) and none of the other clubs appear in any way interested in pursuing licensing any time soon. This is a red herring. As things stand both the HL and north region are happy for progression to be by licensing and application.

Edited September 26, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given no change appears to have been made at the SJFA's 2019 AGM there is no reason to believe that the all-in mandate has changed in any way. It's easy enough to still include the north region in paper terms when there are no licensed clubs involved other than Banks o'Dee (in at the same time as Linlithgow Rose and hence don't appear to have to commit to the principle of progression) and none of the other clubs appear in any way interested in pursuing licensing any time soon. This is a red herring. As things stand both the HL and north region are happy for progression to be by licensing and application.

In other words, you're claiming that the mandate is now only West and East in together, which is pretty immaterial as we all know that is unlikely to happen, and will just hold-up the West coming in.

[LongTimeLurker]

What on earth? The problem is that nothing has changed on the mandate provided by the 2018 AGM and the EoS have the ability to prevent it from happening, so things are at an impasse.

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What on earth? The problem is that nothing has changed on the mandate provided by the 2018 AGM and the EoS have the ability to prevent it from happening, so things are at an impasse.

I'm of the opinion that you can't have a mandate if the original purpose of it has changed (all three regions in), therefore it should have been discussed at AGM and a fresh approach agreed, which clearly didn't happen.

However, the SJFA/TJ can go to the membership at any time and ask that they agree that the WRJFA can enter next season whilst discussions continue re ERJFA and NRJFA to find long term solutions.

He can do that today, ahead of any future PWG meeting.   I doubt he will, and I suspect we know why.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Burnie_man

[LongTimeLurker]

People on the committees of lots of clubs saw all your posts about this earlier this year, but nobody appears to have questioned what was going on with the negotiation posture at the SJFA and west region AGMs. It's not just about Tom Johnston. A lot of people still appear to believe that the SFA can force it through, so it's all probably in a holding pattern until it becomes crystal clear to all whether they can or not.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

People on the committees of lots of clubs saw all your posts about this earlier this year, but nobody appears to have questioned what was going on with the negotiation posture at the SJFA and west region AGMs. It's not just about Tom Johnston. A lot of people still appear to believe that the SFA can force it through, so it's all probably in a holding pattern until it becomes crystal clear to all whether they can or not.

I think it's already been proven that they can't, otherwise it would already have happened, and IM/RP wouldn't have needed to try and "sell it" to the EoS (and LL) members.

I said back in April that unless the  SFA devised a different approach to this and the PWG, then there may well be no progress at all, and that they needed to get the SJFA regions involved directly.  If that didn't happen, then eventually some clubs in the west might take matters into their own hands, and that might still happen.

To the best of my knowledge there is no date set yet for the next PWG (anyone know otherwise?), so until that happens, all we're doing is going round in circles.

[FairWeatherFan]

If we go all the way to the SJFA questionnaire the choices over pyramid entry never included the North Region. Which is why some North clubs never replied since it never related to them.

Does anyone actually know what the 2018 vote was specifically for?

Even the now infamous from Maxwell email from last October had the West & East in, with the North still to be negotiated.

Either side can take that however they want with the idea being that "all in" was never "all in at once".

[Burnie_man]

36 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If we go all the way to the SJFA questionnaire the choices over pyramid entry never included the North Region. Which is why some North clubs never replied since it never related to them.

Does anyone actually know what the 2018 vote was specifically for?

Even the now infamous from Maxwell email from last October had the West & East in, with the North still to be negotiated.

Either side can take that however they want with the idea being that "all in" was never "all in at once".

The "Mandate" stretches back all the way to 2002 when the PWG first convened.  The mandate was that the SJFA's position would be that they would only take part in a Pyramid if their structure remained intact.  Months back on this thread I posted extracts from the 2008 and 2009 AGM minutes referring to it and the PWG.

To the best of my knowledge, it's not been formally changed.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

The "Mandate" stretches back all the way to 2002 when the PWG first convened.  The mandate was that the SJFA's position would be that they would only take part in a Pyramid if their structure remained intact.  Months back on this thread I posted extracts from the 2008 and 2009 AGM minutes referring to it and the PWG.

To the best of my knowledge, it's not been formally changed.

Well that doesn't get impacted as they are still within the SJFA structure.

And I still don't think they're referencing anything from 10+ years ago. It's what they voted for in 2018 in a blind panic thinking they were on a sinking ship that matters.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Well that doesn't get impacted as they are still within the SJFA structure.

And I still don't think they're referencing anything from 10+ years ago. It's what they voted for in 2018 in a blind panic thinking they were on a sinking ship that matters.

I think they are, TJ always refers to the mandate they were given, negotiate entry provided the SJFA structure remains intact.  That's not changed to the best of my knowledge.

[Burnie_man]

On 10/03/2019 at 12:53, Burnie_man said:

Correct. He only has a mandate to move everyone into the Pyramid as a block and keep the SJFA structure intact. It's been like that for a decade or more. That clearly means all in or not in, but no doubt it will be spun in order to avoid an egm.

This is what I posted up back in March.