Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

The EoS managed a 3 way play-off perfectly last season. Copy that.

Worked perfectly last year. Also has plenty of variations that people aren't happy with, that tend to get worse if you open up the idea of 2 promotion spots.

[FairWeatherFan]

48 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Good god you can't be for real? Are you seriously promoting throwing everyone together and fixing it later just because the sjfa want to play ball now?

That's like throwing bricks, wood, mortar and steel in the air and hoping it magically lands together like a house.

The concession seems to be a West league and Tayside league all sitting at Tier 6 along side the EoSFL and SoSFL. Since nobody other than the SJFA are expected to run these leagues it still retains the SJFA in the pyramid. And also permanently slots two comparatively weak regions (South and Tayside, both likely to have under 20 each,  potentially single divisions) with the same involvement in the pyramid playoff set up as the two strongest.

That's going to get sorted at some point. Doesn't seem much different to the SJFA all in approach in that you're hoping it sorts itself out eventually. Even the WoSFL, EoSFL and SoSFL isn't going to be set in stone and would evolve over time.

[Guest]

Yes, because it would have been good to have the west region in this season.

I don't disagree regarding the west region, it would have been great.

However, putting together a dugs dinner just to get the west in isn't clever or forward thinking. Future proofing has to be the goal, not chucking something together to suit the sjfa agenda (those running it don't want to lose their position, power or wage).

The west would have been easily administered this year if the sjfa had given up their mandate (which was officially immaterial when the North declined anyway) and worked with the eos to get the east in later. Instead they stuck to their already flawed mandate, played the blame game regarding the LL and EOS and kept their treasured positions, to the detriment of their membership..... That isn't leadership, or providing direction, that's self preservation under the guise of sticking to their members wishes.

[ian44wood]

45 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I don't disagree regarding the west region, it would have been great.

However, putting together a dugs dinner just to get the west in isn't clever or forward thinking. Future proofing has to be the goal, not chucking something together to suit the sjfa agenda (those running it don't want to lose their position, power or wage).

The west would have been easily administered this year if the sjfa had given up their mandate (which was officially immaterial when the North declined anyway) and worked with the eos to get the east in later. Instead they stuck to their already flawed mandate, played the blame game regarding the LL and EOS and kept their treasured positions, to the detriment of their membership..... That isn't leadership, or providing direction, that's self preservation under the guise of sticking to their members wishes.
 

Nail on the head again.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

...The west would have been easily administered this year if the sjfa had given up their mandate (which was officially immaterial when the North declined anyway)...

I understand where you are coming from but the last bit is inaccurate. There is no official indication as far as I am aware that the SJFA have shifted from the all in at once mandate and that the north region are now officially opposed to pyramid entry on that basis. All we know is that there was no progress on agreeing a pro-rel mechanism between the HL and north region, because neither party saw a pressing need for a shift away from entry being by application.

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I don't have a Junior v Senior agenda despite how often you try to drag that into the debate.  Why do you constantly do that?

Choice is good don't you think?

B_M, I am surprised that you continue to respond to the 'Lurker'.  He knows very well that the West/East "both in at Tier 6" for next season, will not be accepted by the EoSL. Also the "border" issue is not even being seriously addressed at present, which prevents the Lowland League recognising Tayside clubs as potential play-off/promotion candidates.

Therefore I have (reluctantly) concluded that the "Lurker" keeps raising these issues, as a delaying tactic, aimed at keeping the West out of the pyramid next season, and retaining the SJFA as a separate entity. 

[FairWeatherFan]

The border issue has been addressed in so far as it's not considered a decisive factor.

• The original plan for the LL dating back to 2013 would have included the East Region Super League as it was in under the Lowland League.
• September 2018 PWG Ian Maxwell comes away with the idea that the EoSFL, SoSFL, West Premiership and East Super League would be Tier 6 under the Lowland League
• October 2018 PGB Ian Maxwell briefs the board on the proposal and there's no dissenting voices with representatives from the SPFL, SHFL, SLFL
• November 2018 1st and only meeting between the SHFL and Juniors with no East Region representation present.
• January 2019 PWG "JG mentioned that the SHFL were not represented at the working group. This was followed by a general discussion regarding the demarcation line and the geographical issues regarding that and how some teams would potentially have to travel large distances."
• April 2019 the SFA presents the EoSFL, SoSFL, West Premiership and East Super League at Tier 6 under the Lowland League as a formal proposal.

There's also the references to a Tayside league in the EoS October minutes and Jan Lowland PWG that can be seen as the EoSFL okay with the Tayside area falling under the Lowland League.

Edited September 24, 2019 by FairWeatherFan

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I understand where you are coming from but the last bit is inaccurate. There is no official indication as far as I am aware that the SJFA have shifted from the all in at once mandate and that the north region are now officially opposed to pyramid entry on that basis. All we know is that there was no progress on agreeing a pro-rel mechanism between the HL and north region, because neither party saw a pressing need for a shift away from entry being by application.

Rod Petrie stated at the April EoS meeting that the NRJFA had held its own discussions with the HL and did not wish to join the Pyramid at this stage.  Which backs up the newspaper article posted a few pages back.

[Spyro]

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

No way should the tayside leagues be allowed into the LL catchment area. The highland league already has equal standing to the LL despite the obvious population differences and this would only be made worse letting the taysiders move south.

[Guest]

I understand where you are coming from but the last bit is inaccurate. There is no official indication as far as I am aware that the SJFA have shifted from the all in at once mandate and that the north region are now officially opposed to pyramid entry on that basis. All we know is that there was no progress on agreeing a pro-rel mechanism between the HL and north region, because neither party saw a pressing need for a shift away from entry being by application.

Your information is not accurate. As burnie man has indicated, this was the sfa statement made at the meeting with eos delegates. Unless this has changed, the original mandate of sjfa entry at tier 6, for all of the membership, is no longer viable.

For me this should have been returned to the membership, the difficulties for Tayside and the east explained and another mandate voted for and produced, on a region by region basis.

That would have been leadership, transparency and direction...... What the sjfa has done is hide behind the mandate and blamed everyone else to ensure they still hold what they hold. That is not progress, that is self preservation.

[LongTimeLurker]

It didn't return to the SJFA membership and another mandate wasn't voted for as far as I am aware, which is why there is no official indication that the SJFA have shifted away from the all in at once mandate and the north region are now officially opposed to pyramid entry on that basis regardless of how much Burnie_man wants that to be the case because it fits his preferred narrative. That's a recipe for no change if the EoS stick to their position, which probably suits Tom Johnston just fine.

Edited September 25, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It didn't return to the SJFA membership and another mandate wasn't voted for as far as I am aware, which is why there is no official indication that the SJFA have shifted away from the all in at once mandate and the north region are now officially opposed to pyramid entry on that basis regardless of how much Burnie_man wants that to be the case because it fits his preferred narrative. That's a recipe for no change if the EoS stick to their position, which probably suits Tom Johnston just fine.

You're not even making sense anymore.  The NRJFA do not want to be involved, that is absolute fact.  They might at some point in future, but not now. Therefore, the all-in or nobody in mandate that TJ operates to is bust.  If he continues down that line, then he will achieve nothing, again.

Why you keep parroting otherwise is beyond me.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Burnie_man

[LongTimeLurker]

The explanation is in the text you quoted. Nothing changed on the all in mandate at the SJFA's AGM. The NRSJFA can still be involved on paper even if in practice nothing will happen unless/until more of its clubs are licensed, which could be a very long way off. The problem with pretending that the SJFA have shifted away from the all in mandate is that you are leading people to believe that the region by region approach is more likely to happen and easier to achieve than it really is.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The explanation is in the text you quoted. Nothing changed on the all in mandate at the SJFA's AGM. The NRSJFA can still be involved on paper even if in practice nothing will happen unless/until more of its clubs are licensed, which could be a very long way off. The problem with pretending that the SJFA have shifted away from the all in mandate is that you are leading people to believe that the region by region approach is more likely to happen and easier to achieve than it really is.

The SJFA haven't shifted away from the all-in mandate and I haven't suggested otherwise.

They haven't moved away from it despite one of the three regions not being interested, and that's why the west region aren't in this season.

The point being made is the SJFA NEED to move away from it because it is no longer relevant, and is the only way that progress will be made. The PWG need to recognise this and invite the Regions to the meetings, that's a very easy thing to do.

Jeeez.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

Question to Burnieman: why are you wasting your time repeatedly responding to this dismal troll?

[ian44wood]

I think TJ’s been whispering in lurkers ear recently 

[Beenzon-Toste]

I think some people need to look beyond what is being touted here by some individuals that seem to have an axe to grind.

The NRSJFA situation is being used like a stick to beat the pro-juniors in the pyramid camp.

The vote was to ask if the SJFA should seek to join the pyramid. The WRSJFA and the ERSJFA both voted yes because they wanted to be part of it. The NRSJFA voted yes because they didn't want to stand in the way of the other Regions joining. If the NRSJFA had voted no, that might have swung the vote in favour of non entry. Voting with the yes side meant that they were keeping their options open. In the end they decided it was not in their interests to join. This did not mean they wanted all 3 regions to remain outwith the pyramid. The SJFA were then looking to seek entry for both the West and the East. This was obviously ok and accepted by the North

At the point of negotiations last season, that is what they were hoping for. It didn't happen because it got blocked.

All the talk of everyone wanting the West in was a complete red-herring. It made them look good, made it look like they were keen, but they knew all along that that was not going to happen whilst the ERSJFA still wanted parity with the WRSJFA.

What they really wanted was for the WRSJFA clubs to get fed up waiting and leave the ERSJFA and all the other clubs in the West to their fate, by setting up a new WOSL, thereby retaining their overall position of power. As it is they used that power to block the Juniors from the Pyramid.

What needs to happen now is for the ERSJFA to notify the SJFA that they do not wish to seek entry to the pyramid for season 2020-21. They then spend that season getting prepared for a top league of 16 to facilitate joining later. The SJFA is then free to negotiate entry for the WRSJFA to the Pyramid for season 20-21. Once that happens, the WRSJFA will have 63 clubs in the Pyramid and the balance of power may then change and a route for the ERSJFA might then be found. Bringing about what is supposed to be what everyone is after, an all encompassing Pyramid system that can provide a route to the top for all.

Finally for all you 'troll-hunters' on here, if the fact I have a different point of view from others makes me a troll, then a troll I must be.

[Ped]

The sjfa now know the views of other leagues and now know what options are open to them West is no issue east easily comes in under the existing EOS and tayside can enter by going north now I know this isn’t to everyone’s liking that’s why I find it strange the sjfa aren’t holding meetings with there own clubs and regions to come up with alternative solutions and get there thoughts on how to move forward that’s what would be alarming me if I was a junior club 

[FairWeatherFan]

I'm sure the SJFA holding pattern right now is saying they're trialling the new rules & regs.

As long as the clubs aren't kicking up a fuss they are on easy street.