Granny Danger Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 29 minutes ago, whiskychimp said: No one has mentioned european pension comparisons. You're moving the goal posts. When people talk of rich pensioners it's from a generational point of view and nothing to do with other countries. The "rich pensioner" doesn't only take state pension into account, as Im sure you know. 40 years of house price rises, final salary pensions etc are also part of it. 1 in 6 UK pensioners are now millionaires I dont agree with any of this, and actually see a lot of pensioner poverty in the UK, but you're being deliberately selective and I'm just showing that one can be selective the other way. The OECD is a good source and I see a lot of value in your link. That is the same institution which would means test pensions and pay more at the poorer end. I think that's a great idea but " rich pensioners" would never agree to that. 4 hours ago, Granny Danger said: I sympathise with the sentiment of your post but you're distorting the facts on NI. NI was always a tax where they existing participants were paying for the former ones; that's how it was designed. No one has taken advantage of this and, even with the recent changes, the state pension in the U.K. is one of the lowest in Europe. The 'rich pensioners' argument is a Tory one and it saddens me that so many folk who are definitely not Tories use it. I agree with you about many pensionerd who are comfortably off voting Tory and voting for Brexit; they may regret both. I had specifically mentioned them, you challenged that. You're the one moving the goal posts because the issue of NI contributions relates only to state pensions; NI contributions have sod all to do with final salary pensions or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskychimp Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 57 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I had specifically mentioned them, you challenged that. You're the one moving the goal posts because the issue of NI contributions relates only to state pensions; NI contributions have sod all to do with final salary pensions or anything else. 5 hours ago, Granny Danger said: I sympathise with the sentiment of your post but you're distorting the facts on NI. NI was always a tax where they existing participants were paying for the former ones; that's how it was designed. No one has taken advantage of this and, even with the recent changes, the state pension in the U.K. is one of the lowest in Europe. The 'rich pensioners' argument is a Tory one and it saddens me that so many folk who are definitely not Tories use it. I agree with you about many pensionerd who are comfortably off voting Tory and voting for Brexit; they may regret both. I challenged your "rich pensioner" stuff. Nothing to do with your european comparison. Property and final salary pensions have everything to do with that. NI contributions have sod all to do with pensions. It's just a tax that goes into the pot like any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, whiskychimp said: I challenged your "rich pensioner" stuff. Nothing to do with your european comparison. NI contributions have sod all to do with pensions. It's just a tax that goes into the pot like any other. The whole thing expanded from a discussion about NI contributions and the state pension that Invergowrie Arab posted. If you want to expand the discussion feel free to do so but don't ignore the points that were raised and being addressed. Yes there are rich pensioners; there are also quite well off pensioners, reasonably well off pensioners, pensioners who are coping, pensioners who are struggling, and pensioners living in dire poverty. Not sure what the solution to this is but blaming one generation and criticising those who have benefitted from final salary pensions ain't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: The whole thing expanded from a discussion about NI contributions and the state pension that Invergowrie Arab posted. If you want to expand the discussion feel free to do so but don't ignore the points that were raised and being addressed. Yes there are rich pensioners; there are also quite well off pensioners, reasonably well off pensioners, pensioners who are coping, pensioners who are struggling, and pensioners living in dire poverty. Not sure what the solution to this is but blaming one generation and criticising those who have benefitted from final salary pensions ain't it. Part of the solution may be to remove the state pension and winter fuel allowance to individuals with private pension pots over £1 million. As the government already reverse some tax savings once pots get above this it wouldn't require any extra staffing just simple update of Admin stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, Adam101 said: Part of the solution may be to remove the state pension and winter fuel allowance to individuals with private pension pots over £1 million. As the government already reverse some tax savings once pots get above this it wouldn't require any extra staffing just simple update of Admin stuff. I'd imagine many people who had that level of pot, and they will be a small minority, would strive to keep their pot just below the cut-off point. The average UK private pension pot is just £50k. On a wider note, it would be a betrayal of people who spent decades paying in NI to be told they're not getting their state pension. If we really want to tackle pensioner poverty, and other types of poverty in the UK, we can always start by scrapping Trident; that would save a few bob. We could also go after the big companies who exploit tax loopholes; maybe reverse the cuts in Corporation Tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 21 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I'd imagine many people who had that level of pot, and they will be a small minority, would strive to keep their pot just below the cut-off point. The average UK private pension pot is just £50k. On a wider note, it would be a betrayal of people who spent decades paying in NI to be told they're not getting their state pension. If we really want to tackle pensioner poverty, and other types of poverty in the UK, we can always start by scrapping Trident; that would save a few bob. We could also go after the big companies who exploit tax loopholes; maybe reverse the cuts in Corporation Tax. I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I don't get the Trident guff. Its part of the defence budget, the money would be spent on other things within the that budget rather than handed over to the poor old pensioners who couldn't be bothered putting money aside for a pension......... (I'll confess to a bit of trolling with that one, I have no problem with a cheaper nuclear option than Trident but you get my point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskychimp Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: On a wider note, it would be a betrayal of people who spent decades paying in NI to be told they're not getting their state pension. The government change rules all the time. If someone is lucky enough not to need a state pension, they should be happy. NI is just a tax, not an insurance. We don't pay tax with the expectation of getting back because we paid in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brummie Clyde Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Looking to buy a house now. For a decent 3 bedroom house you're looking at about £210,000 in Brum though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskychimp Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Brummie Clyde said: Looking to buy a house now. For a decent 3 bedroom house you're looking at about £210,000 in Brum though. What is your financial status? Funds, salary, debts etc. With a tiny deposit you'd have to earn about 55k a year. About 1k a month repayments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Adam101 said: Part of the solution may be to remove the state pension and winter fuel allowance to individuals with private pension pots over £1 million. As the government already reverse some tax savings once pots get above this it wouldn't require any extra staffing just simple update of Admin stuff. This is wrong-headed. By the time I retire I'll have paid a hell of a lot of NI over about 50 years as will have my employers. Add to that the tax I've paid and I'm very much a net contributor. OK so my 'pot' won't be near a million but the idea of the state pension not being means-tested is absolutely sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: This is wrong-headed. By the time I retire I'll have paid a hell of a lot of NI over about 50 years as will have my employers. Add to that the tax I've paid and I'm very much a net contributor. OK so my 'pot' won't be near a million but the idea of the state pension not being means-tested is absolutely sound. Getting away from any fairness aspect, it would be a massive vote loser which would have a bearing. The whole 'old people are selfish' thing is pretty tragic and smacks of envy, the oldies aren't the problem, they've got what they were sold. That its going to get shitter for those following is 'one of those things' in a lot of ways, cold comfort but we're being given plenty warning that we need to think of our futures. To blame those that have no chance to change their situation is just a selfish and 'woe is me' approach. Aye, there are a lot of things that are wrong like zero hour contracts and the like which means employers don't have to stump up for pensions etc but that's hardly the baby boomers fault. It was the same with the Indy ref/Brexit votes, those who had no ability to change their situation maybe voted for what they saw as safe, those who had years to plan for any changes will find it easier to embrace those changes and plan accordingly. Its no surprise that generations will see things differently but for the young to blame the old for all the woes in THEIR world is pretty poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 I'd imagine many people who had that level of pot, and they will be a small minority, would strive to keep their pot just below the cut-off point. The average UK private pension pot is just £50k. On a wider note, it would be a betrayal of people who spent decades paying in NI to be told they're not getting their state pension. If we really want to tackle pensioner poverty, and other types of poverty in the UK, we can always start by scrapping Trident; that would save a few bob. We could also go after the big companies who exploit tax loopholes; maybe reverse the cuts in Corporation Tax. I don't disagree that there is other ways to cut pensioner poverty, however I think that the state pension will be removed in my life time I've just turned 20 and happy to pay my N.I every month as I think it's more than worth it. But I think as we move towards a universal basic income there will be far less of a need for the state to provide a 'wage' at the end of your life and far more need during people's working life. Back on topic I have an ISA which I think is going to make buying a reality for young people but understand everyone is different and the proportion of young people who expect to buy a house in the future is far smaller than our parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 42 minutes ago, chomp my root said: Getting away from any fairness aspect, it would be a massive vote loser which would have a bearing. The whole 'old people are selfish' thing is pretty tragic and smacks of envy, the oldies aren't the problem, they've got what they were sold. That its going to get shitter for those following is 'one of those things' in a lot of ways, cold comfort but we're being given plenty warning that we need to think of our futures. To blame those that have no chance to change their situation is just a selfish and 'woe is me' approach. Aye, there are a lot of things that are wrong like zero hour contracts and the like which means employers don't have to stump up for pensions etc but that's hardly the baby boomers fault. It was the same with the Indy ref/Brexit votes, those who had no ability to change their situation maybe voted for what they saw as safe, those who had years to plan for any changes will find it easier to embrace those changes and plan accordingly. Its no surprise that generations will see things differently but for the young to blame the old for all the woes in THEIR world is pretty poor. I agree with much of that but a lot has has changed since I left school in 1977 - particularly wrt to pensions, Uni fees and house-buying. I talk to my three teens about these things in a way that my parents never did. OK so I'll cover their tuition costs but, if they continue to live in the SE, they will only manage a deposit for a hoose after I'm dead and split my estate between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskychimp Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, chomp my root said: Getting away from any fairness aspect, it would be a massive vote loser which would have a bearing. The whole 'old people are selfish' thing is pretty tragic and smacks of envy, the oldies aren't the problem, they've got what they were sold. That its going to get shitter for those following is 'one of those things' in a lot of ways, cold comfort but we're being given plenty warning that we need to think of our futures. To blame those that have no chance to change their situation is just a selfish and 'woe is me' approach. Aye, there are a lot of things that are wrong like zero hour contracts and the like which means employers don't have to stump up for pensions etc but that's hardly the baby boomers fault. It was the same with the Indy ref/Brexit votes, those who had no ability to change their situation maybe voted for what they saw as safe, those who had years to plan for any changes will find it easier to embrace those changes and plan accordingly. Its no surprise that generations will see things differently but for the young to blame the old for all the woes in THEIR world is pretty poor. They could trade in their property wealth to fund their own care. Or just die when they are meant to instead of using the NHS to help them live way beyond natural selection. This one is slightly tongue in cheek before anyone gets offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said: I agree with much of that but a lot has has changed since I left school in 1977 - particularly wrt to pensions, Uni fees and house-buying. I talk to my three teens about these things in a way that my parents never did. OK so I'll cover their tuition costs but, if they continue to live in the SE, they will only manage a deposit for a hoose after I'm dead and split my estate between them. I'm not sure what we can do about the price of property, its not just here that its becoming out of the reach of the young or 'averagely' paid, our obsession with owning (WHICH I COMPLETELY GET) has clouded our view. My daughter is the same, albeit she's based in Dubai where its pretty insane too. Even in Edinburgh (where she grew up) she would struggle. Its wrong how much property is going for in some areas, the UK is hardly unique in that and while that doesn't make it right it does highlight that its 'not just us' that view property as an investment opportunity. I've been lucky to have got myself into a situation that I didn't anticipate with buying property to let, my daughter might inherit them (she'll likely inherit her mothers house very soon for all the wrong reasons) but if me and the current Mrs Root live long lives and go ga ga then there's every chance the money will end up spunked on our care homes. Don't want to take the thread down yet another route but that seems to be a whole different way to cream the cash from folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, whiskychimp said: They could trade in their property wealth to fund their own care. Or just die when they are meant to instead of using the NHS to help them live way beyond natural selection. This one is slightly tongue in cheek before anyone gets offended. That's what happens now anyway. This is a funny one for me, I've no problem with folk having to cash in their wealth instead of passing it down to their kids but by the same token if they've made sacrifices to save (and do all the stuff they were told to) then why should they pay when others have blown their wealth on holidays etc. Don't know the answer myself by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskychimp Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 minute ago, chomp my root said: That's what happens now anyway. This is a funny one for me, I've no problem with folk having to cash in their wealth instead of passing it down to their kids but by the same token if they've made sacrifices to save (and do all the stuff they were told to) then why should they pay when others have blown their wealth on holidays etc. Don't know the answer myself by the way. If you fund it yourself you get a deluxe room with a sea view along with nice food and a christmas present. If it's funded for you, you get a view of the bins, no ensuite but a sink in the corner, basic nutrient rich gruel and christmas is cancelled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Adam101 said: I don't disagree that there is other ways to cut pensioner poverty, however I think that the state pension will be removed in my life time I've just turned 20 and happy to pay my N.I every month as I think it's more than worth it. But I think as we move towards a universal basic income there will be far less of a need for the state to provide a 'wage' at the end of your life and far more need during people's working life. Back on topic I have an ISA which I think is going to make buying a reality for young people but understand everyone is different and the proportion of young people who expect to buy a house in the future is far smaller than our parents. You're more organised than I was at your age, fair play to you mate. I doubt state pensions will cease, they might get means tested or some other constraints but I think there will have to be something to hoover up those that have nothing. I'm intrigued by the 'basic income' approach, I'd like to think it could work here but I'm dubious, maybe sometime in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomp my root Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, whiskychimp said: If you fund it yourself you get a deluxe room with a sea view along with nice food and a christmas present. If it's funded for you, you get a view of the bins, no ensuite but a sink in the corner, basic nutrient rich gruel and christmas is cancelled But if you're all 'dementiad' up it won't make any difference. #prayfordementia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskychimp Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, chomp my root said: But if you're all 'dementiad' up it won't make any difference. #prayfordementia I had that plan all wrapped up neatly. Fucking dementia The best laid plan of mice and tuttie fruitties, gang wibble wobble brrr brrr, is it mince for tea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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