Pro Ev 2018

[19QOS19]

I listen to Spotify when I play it tbu. But on the rare occasion I had the commentary it was indeed awful.

[RandomGuy.]

4 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I listen to Spotify when I play it tbu. But on the rare occasion I had the commentary it was indeed awful.

Yeah it's not something that's a huge problem, but it's just another example of little things they're neglecting that hinders them. It's no use having sensational gameplay if nobody can be bothered playing games. 

[Buddist Monk]

I should start out by saying I was always a PES fan but round about 2011 Konami dropped the ball (yay! pun!). Since then, and certainly on the PC, it's been a shambling mess. Traditionally you accepted that if you buy PES you then need to apply a 3rd party patch to get all the names/clubs/stadiums/etc back to normal, which was a pain but necessary, however the payoff was that the actual physics of the game were better. Rather than FIFA ping pong passing dominating, you were able to craft moves with players overlapping and making late breaks into the box. That was then, sadly for Konami they've totally ignored the game, put out some utterly embarrassing efforts and spent their money on pointless licensing (sure, get some real teams, but only some of them, that looks more stupid than all of them being daft names - and you still need to apply the 3rd party patch) rather than on development.

During this time EA worked on the physics, introduced the Frostbite engine and generally made the AI a lot better. By FIFA 15 there was clear water between the two games and it was obvious which one was moving and which standing still. Sure, EA included the figurative cancer that is The Journey, and yes they use the game as a money dispenser with FUT, but the truth is that on the pitch FIFA is miles better than PES. What's more Konami went out of their way to make PES less modable - despite the vast majority of people relying on the mods to make the game worth playing and a community that was more than willing to help out improve the title.

So, in short, PES is stuck. Without major overhauls of the licensing, the game engine and even the fucking awful UI it uses, it's going to continue being stuck. It's like Konami just put it out year after year because they know some c**t will be so annoyed with FIFA that they'll get a sale. I also notice that of it's regularly high in the seedings for Pirate Bay and the like, meaning it's pirated like a mofo. It's also seemingly very popular in Russia. Not sure if these two things are related.

 

TL;DR? Yeah, there are still tons of things that annoy you about FIFA, but the truth of the matter is that PES has been an also ran for nigh on 6 years and it doesn't look like it's going to improve any time soon, because... well Konami, that's why. PES is poorer in every single respect, and it gives me no pleasure saying that.

[19QOS19]

PES's gameplay in the last two games was far better than the monotonous pish FIFA dished up. Almost anyone could score a goal with that finesse shot. I've found it ridiculously difficult to score from outside the box in Pro.

FIFA strikes me as a game for gamers who want to be able to run through the opposition and always have high scoring games. Getting a 1-0 victory in Pro can feel like a real achievement at times. I much prefer having to work for a win.

I generally find those who slate Pro are those who are absolutely pish at it.

[Richey Edwards]

Turn the commentary off and do your own.

[Buddist Monk]

27 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

PES's gameplay in the last two games was far better than the monotonous pish FIFA dished up. Almost anyone could score a goal with that finesse shot. I've found it ridiculously difficult to score from outside the box in Pro.

I am amazed that somebody really thinks that. It's clearly inferior. I am talking the PC version here, but both on and off the field FIFA is miles ahead.

27 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

FIFA strikes me as a game for gamers who want to be able to run through the opposition and always have high scoring games. Getting a 1-0 victory in Pro can feel like a real achievement at times. I much prefer having to work for a win.

PES strikes me as a game for gamers who have never played FIFA. As for scoring goals, I could rifle the buggers in on PES 2012/13/14 and to an extent 15. Every year there is the constant debate that keepers are too strong/weak and that shooting is too easy/difficult. That's consistent across both platforms and is not in any way associated with just one. Generally these things get (de)buffed with the following patch.

I've downloaded both PES 2017 and 2018 and they've both been an unfinished mess, again on the PC - can't comment about the console. The UI is absolutely dreadful - you can see that there isn't enough developers or development time.

27 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I generally find those who slate Pro are those who are absolutely pish at it.

I'm pish at it now, purely because I've stopped playing it. This is the one thing about the two platforms, because they handle their physics and gameplay differently shifting from one to the other can catch you out easily. I also think the "you don't like it because your shit at it" argument to be the last bastion of anyone trying to defend a poor game.

PES players, and I know this because I was one myself since the early N64 days when it was called ISS, seem to like PES not because it's good but purely because it's not FIFA. There is a real chip on the shoulder from the community and really rather than blaming FIFA their ire should be directed towards Konami who take their money year after year yet deliver shit update after shit update.

Bottom line? I wish PES was better. I'd love Konami to properly support it. It would be brilliant if they helped the modding community rather than actively putting stuff in place to hamper them. Ultimately I'd play PES purely because I dislike paying any money to EA as they are c***s, but the simple fact is PES is nowhere near good enough to justify my dislike of FIFA.

 

[19QOS19]

I have a lot more going on in my life than spending time and money buying and enjoying Pro just because "it's not FIFA". The last two releases have been a vast improvement on the previous drivel Konami released.

I don't know how many times I've heard FIFA fanboys come out with a line like - "Pro is shite. Man Reds FFS." A huge amount of folk won't buy it because of the licences. It's a pain but it wouldn't put me off if it's a good game to play.

3 years ago I'd agree the gameplay wasn't great and I think that's what you're basing your argument on. The last two don't come anywhere near that bracket.

[Buddist Monk]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

I have a lot more going on in my life than spending time and money buying and enjoying Pro just because "it's not FIFA". The last two releases have been a vast improvement on the previous drivel Konami released.

I never said you did, I'm saying the community has a chip on it's shoulder and it most certainly does. I've played 2017 and 2018 on the PC and while there are improvements - and that's only because it would be near impossible to go backwards - they were starting from a very low base; as you say "drivel".

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

I don't know how many times I've heard FIFA fanboys come out with a line like - "Pro is shite. Man Reds FFS." A huge amount of folk won't buy it because of the licences. It's a pain but it wouldn't put me off if it's a good game to play.

I'm not a FIFA fan boy, quite the opposite, and was a major PES fan boy for absolute years. What has changed my mindset? PES 2011/12 onwards. Now you are right about it being fairly simple to apply the licence patch, but it just one of many things at fault with the vanilla game. What's more, Konami have intentionally made the game hard to mod to stop people putting the licences back in. Ironic considering PES has now given up just about every licence they have. The few that were left, like Dortmund or the official Europa League have now been passed onto EA because Konami couldn't be bothered to spend the money.

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

3 years ago I'd agree the gameplay wasn't great and I think that's what you're basing your argument on. The last two don't come anywhere near that bracket.

I've already said I've played both 17 and 18 so not sure why you think that. They are an improvement, but as I said it's because they are starting from such a low point.

See when PES implemented the body weight system (round about 15?) that was a major improvement in the gameplay. FIFA didn't have it, but next year it did, and what's more it implemented it better. Is this because Konami are shite? No, it's because Konami puts the least amount of effort into their updates. They know they are behind but instead of putting resources into pulling level they just don't bother. Are EA shite? Why yes, they most certainly are, but the one thing they have done is throw money at FIFA and it shows. Look at the UI of PES, it's not minimalistic in style, it's minimalistic because nobody has had to the time to put a bit of love into it. As for the continually failing online mode, Konami's code was broken in round about 2009 and they've never got round to fixing it. It's buggy and laggy and altogether untrustworthy.

The Frostbite engine that FIFA uses is also far superior to the Fox engine, what is interesting though is that neither engine is suited for a football game. They spend a ridiculous number of cycles generating the most perfect lighting effects which may be great for Metal Gear or Battlefield but is wasted on rendering stadiums and absolutely baulks at having to generate thousands of fans in the stadium.

---

What annoys me about both titles is that 30 years on from Microprose Soccer (the forerunner to Sensi Soccer) which had dynamic weather, we are still to see such a thing implemented into either title. That's just stupid. The pitch should evolve throughout the game and weather should play part of that.

Are there things wrong with FIFA? Sure as hell there is. I could list a ton of things wrong with it, but they do not make the game poorer for it. The Journey is, as I said, figurative cancer. I defy anyone to play that and not utterly hate the main character and everyone he comes in contact with. The stupid change to the transfers and the manager's AI both on the pitch and in the transfer market shows a weakness in developing that part of the game. Continuing to include FUT as part of the package compared to just releasing it separately and the massive price tag are just a few of the things. Oh, and just being EA ffs, that's enough of something to get annoyed with. All said and done, the reason I play FIFA is because it's simply the better game and Konami have to take full credit for that as it seems they have gone out of their way to let down fans year after year after year.

[Dougie Mills]

1 hour ago, Buddist Monk said:

I never said you did, I'm saying the community has a chip on it's shoulder and it most certainly does. I've played 2017 and 2018 on the PC and while there are improvements - and that's only because it would be near impossible to go backwards - they were starting from a very low base; as you say "drivel".

I'm not a FIFA fan boy, quite the opposite, and was a major PES fan boy for absolute years. What has changed my mindset? PES 2011/12 onwards. Now you are right about it being fairly simple to apply the licence patch, but it just one of many things at fault with the vanilla game. What's more, Konami have intentionally made the game hard to mod to stop people putting the licences back in. Ironic considering PES has now given up just about every licence they have. The few that were left, like Dortmund or the official Europa League have now been passed onto EA because Konami couldn't be bothered to spend the money.

I've already said I've played both 17 and 18 so not sure why you think that. They are an improvement, but as I said it's because they are starting from such a low point.

See when PES implemented the body weight system (round about 15?) that was a major improvement in the gameplay. FIFA didn't have it, but next year it did, and what's more it implemented it better. Is this because Konami are shite? No, it's because Konami puts the least amount of effort into their updates. They know they are behind but instead of putting resources into pulling level they just don't bother. Are EA shite? Why yes, they most certainly are, but the one thing they have done is throw money at FIFA and it shows. Look at the UI of PES, it's not minimalistic in style, it's minimalistic because nobody has had to the time to put a bit of love into it. As for the continually failing online mode, Konami's code was broken in round about 2009 and they've never got round to fixing it. It's buggy and laggy and altogether untrustworthy.

The Frostbite engine that FIFA uses is also far superior to the Fox engine, what is interesting though is that neither engine is suited for a football game. They spend a ridiculous number of cycles generating the most perfect lighting effects which may be great for Metal Gear or Battlefield but is wasted on rendering stadiums and absolutely baulks at having to generate thousands of fans in the stadium.

---

What annoys me about both titles is that 30 years on from Microprose Soccer (the forerunner to Sensi Soccer) which had dynamic weather, we are still to see such a thing implemented into either title. That's just stupid. The pitch should evolve throughout the game and weather should play part of that.

Are there things wrong with FIFA? Sure as hell there is. I could list a ton of things wrong with it, but they do not make the game poorer for it. The Journey is, as I said, figurative cancer. I defy anyone to play that and not utterly hate the main character and everyone he comes in contact with. The stupid change to the transfers and the manager's AI both on the pitch and in the transfer market shows a weakness in developing that part of the game. Continuing to include FUT as part of the package compared to just releasing it separately and the massive price tag are just a few of the things. Oh, and just being EA ffs, that's enough of something to get annoyed with. All said and done, the reason I play FIFA is because it's simply the better game and Konami have to take full credit for that as it seems they have gone out of their way to let down fans year after year after year.

I have no idea what PES is like gameplay wise on the PC.  On console however it is far superior to FIFA.

[Buddist Monk]

3 minutes ago, Dougie Mills said:

I have no idea what PES is like gameplay wise on the PC.  On console however it is far superior to FIFA.

I would very much doubt that, it certainly doesn't match with forum posts claiming no difference. Even if it is, it only goes to show what a bunch of shitehawks Konami are by not fully updating the PC version. My comments regarding licensing, online mode and the like are all still valid, those remain irrespective of the version.

I'm not arguing that you should play FIFA, I would never do that, my frustration is that the only competitor to EA continually fails to deliver.

 

 

 

 

[#Gary]

It literally couldn't be any easier to "mod" PES.

 

[19QOS19]

I think if you don't like PES 18 then it's done for you. I thought the gameplay in this one was about as good as it's been since it's heyday.

I doubt PES will ever be on top again. They could bring out the best football game in a generation and the FIFA fanboys wouldn't bother their arse to even give it a try before knocking it.

I've never liked FIFA. And I don't really care that folk will blindly buy the game, it's not having an effect on my life. I do get annoyed when Pro gets knocked by muppets like thst just for being Pro though!

[Buddist Monk]

2 minutes ago, #Gary said:

It literally couldn't be any easier to "mod" PES.

Do you mean applying the mod? Because that's not what I am talking about. Konami have made it harder over the years, when really what they should be doing is engaging in the community not restricting it.  You don't need to take my word for it, you can simply follow the comments from those who create things like PTE.

[Buddist Monk]

1 minute ago, 19QOS19 said:

I doubt PES will ever be on top again. They could bring out the best football game in a generation and the FIFA fanboys wouldn't bother their arse to even give it a try before knocking it.

I've never liked FIFA. And I don't really care that folk will blindly buy the game, it's not having an effect on my life. I do get annoyed when Pro gets knocked by muppets like thst just for being Pro though!

None of that describes me, I'd happily support PES if it was the better game. It's improved, we both agree, but it faded badly about 5 or 6 generations ago and never caught up that lost ground.

Thing is, when I switched I hated it. It was only because PES 2011/12 was so bad that I had no real choice. This isn't some fanboy rant, it's just wanting to play the most rewarding game.

 

[Tri-TON]

As I stated previous in the thread, I'll be making the jump to PES this year, once we get a full Scottish Championship "mod" [emoji849]

FIFA hasn't changed in years and even though I ain't bought PES until the 2018 was about a tenner a few months ago, I've played the demos, and I can see a game that has improved year on year.

[Tri-TON]

FIFA - wee boys
PES - shaggers

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Hopefully the folk who would normally do the SPFL Premiership file decide to concentrate their abilities on a Championship file this year. I'm still happy about the prospect of signing an officially licensed Craig Samson for my Master League team though.

[Stellaboz]

Hopefully the folk who would normally do the SPFL Premiership file decide to concentrate their abilities on a Championship file this year. I'm still happy about the prospect of signing an officially licensed Craig Samson for my Master League team though.

Shame a year too late to put Brechin in the Championship mod. Do ratings go so low?

[Buddist Monk]

Installed the PES 2019 demo on the PC to see where it is this year.

There are two elements I'd like to cover, the gameplay and the game.

On the pitch the gameplay has moved on. I still find it a little basic, but not having the "bouncy" FIFA character movements has always been one of PES' biggest pluses. It's an absolute world away from their 12 - 16 efforts although I still find a major problem both with the speed of the game and the integration of the movements. FIFA is by no means innocent with similar crimes but this post isn't about FIFA. That's obviously something personal and my preference is somewhere in the middle, FIFA's fluidity with PES's more natural characters (ignoring the rendering errors). In terms of goals, I chose Sao Paulo vs Palmeiras at the SuperStar rating. I was 4-0 up by half time, and ran out 7-2 winners. That was my first game of PES in absolutely ages! Maybe I was lucky but it doesn't bode well for any career games.

Graphically it has a huge problem. Consistent graphics tearing leading to lots of lag. This can be negated by dropping the in game render options, and I did this to the lowest levels, and while that helps it does not resolve the issue. What's more in the main settings (before you launch the game) there is no disable vsync option. Their 1080p is also not 1080p - I think this may be to do with PC being a port of the Xbox version. Generally you'll find Xbox One being limited to 900p @30fps. This is also pointed to by the lack of font scaling. This makes the already Spartan menu look worse unless you choose (what seems to be) the native rendering of 720p.

Two things to mention here; One is that I'd expect the lag to be resolved by a patch, that was very common for PES years ago and it seems like it's still an issue. Secondly, while I don't have a top of the range PC, I do have one whose vanilla specs are considerably better than both the standard PS4 and XBox One.

 

So.. bottom line? It's still plagued by problems going back almost a generation. It always looks unfinished, the menu systems, the UI and the UX are all needing some serious attention. Those in themselves could be discarded if the game on the pitch was up to scratch, but for me the graphical issues and the delay in performing actions really don't help sell it. Those last two things can be patched, and certainly I'd expect the former to be so. On the PC it seems to suffer the ignominy of being an Xbox cast off, which not only ignores the extra beef that's available to it but effectively punishes you for trying to take advantage of that beef.

If the demo was meant to sell the game, I feel it does the opposite, certainly on the PC.

I would happily swap back to PES if it would resolve the problems that have haunted it for ages, and to not address them feeds directly into the trope that Konami just doesn't give a monkeys about it's user base - this is common across all it's games to be fair and not just a PES issue.

I'll grab a pirate version of the full game to give it a proper try, but it's still some distance from the days when I'd automatically pre-order the game without a second thought.

 

[Buddist Monk]

So an addendum:

I spent about half an hour dicking about with external graphics settings; nVidia Profiler and System Tools (my card is a vanilla 960GTX) and I've seemingly resolved the tears and lag, and can also throw it up to the maximum graphics settings in game. I also amended some of the multi-core CPU balancing - this may be specific only to AMD chips I don't have an Intel to check it with. Oh, and it really fucking hates windowed mode, and again I think that's linked to this being an Xbox port.

Now, with that in place the game improves significantly. The rendering at the highest level is still a bit rubbish, but that's incidental if the game runs well. For all the negatives I throw at recent gen PES games, it's a pleasure to play the game how I want it rather than how EA thinks it should be. To get the best out of FIFA you need to work within their rules as it were and that limits your creativity. That's what I refer to when I say "bouncy" FIFA players as you have to manipulate the weight of the character to get them to perform a certain way. That's not really the case with PES, but on the flip side when you swap between standard and fancy moves in PES there seems to be a delay.

Weirdly enough, I've not won a game by more than 2 goals since I've fixed the rendering. Although to be fair I still have FIFA "muscle memory", as it were.

If Komani can patch up the graphics, make the special to normal moves more fluid and make the game a little harder at the top level, 2019 might actually be worthy of purchase.

 

Edit: I'm going to add another positive. The AI for the player swaps and the passing. This is something PES has always been better for, FIFA's reluctance to change players and put passes in the wrong place means I need to disable all the assists in the EA title. It gives me much more control, but it adds so much more work to playing the game. Even without all the assists it still assists which infuriates the f**k out of me. I've not touched the assist options in the PES 2019 Demo yet. I honestly don't know where they live in the menu structure and I think that tells it's own story.