Club Licence

[LongTimeLurker]

The SJFA's explanation to their membership appears to have been that they were in and then the SFA changed their minds because of pressure from SPFL clubs to limit the number of new members. The real explanation appears to have been that an inexperienced SFA CEO didn't understand the limits of the powers of the SFA Board and jumped the gun on declaring that a solution on entry for the west and east superleagues had been found.

There no doubt was pressure from SPFL clubs on the licensing of new members but bringing in associate membership beneath tier 5 will have fixed that from their standpoint, so there is now no obvious reason for the SFA Board to block a large influx of junior applicants into associate membership, if they aren't going to be able to vote at SFA AGMs.

The EoS and LL clubs can block the tier 6 entry of the east superleague at the PWG level because consensus is needed to achieve change on the pro/rel rules into the LL from below but the licensing of more junior clubs besides Girvan and BoD is nothing to do with the PWG and is a separate issue entirely that is handled by the SFA Board.

Edited June 24, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[AlanCamelonfan]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SJFA's explanation to their membership appears to have been that they were in and then the SFA changed their minds because of pressure from SPFL clubs to limit the number of new members. The real explanation appears to have been that an inexperienced SFA CEO didn't understand the limits of the powers of the SFA Board and jumped the gun on declaring that a solution on entry for the west and east superleagues had been found.

There no doubt was pressure from SPFL clubs on the licensing of new members but bringing in associate membership beneath tier 5 will have fixed that from their standpoint, so there is now no obvious reason for the SFA Board to block a large influx of junior applicants into associate membership, if they aren't going to be able to vote at SFA AGMs.

The EoS and LL clubs can block the tier 6 entry of the east superleague at the PWG level because consensus is needed to achieve change on the pro/rel rules into the LL from below but the licensing of more junior clubs besides Girvan and BoD is nothing to do with the PWG and is a separate issue entirely that is handled by the SFA Board.

Yes but the current rules is they need to be in a pyramid league

[LongTimeLurker]

That was the way the licensing conditions were being applied before the SJFA voted to enter the pyramid. It remains to be seen how they are applied now that the SJFA is trying to enter and is changing its discipline procedures this season to comply with standard pyramid procedures with a view to tier 6 entry in 2020-21. The SFA Board can easily change the procedures on licensing conditions as they did last season with floodlights. Petershill and Cumnock are the test case on this.

[Marten]

10 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Licensing conditions are up to the SFA and circumstances have clearly changed given the SJFA want in and the SFA Board wanted the east and west superleagues in at tier six this season, so you have no way of knowing that for sure. You take this anti-junior thing way too far sometimes. It would be a good thing if more junior clubs got licensed.

The SJFA claim they want in. But they don't act that way. If they really want in, they'd co-operate a bit more and drop unreasonable demands like the east & west joining at the same time and instead allowing the west to move in whilst working on a solution for the east (and north!).

[Burnie_man]

That was the way the licensing conditions were being applied before the SJFA voted to enter the pyramid. It remains to be seen how they are applied now that the SJFA is trying to enter and is changing its discipline procedures this season to comply with standard pyramid procedures with a view to tier 6 entry in 2020-21. The SFA Board can easily change the procedures on licensing conditions as they did last season with floodlights. Petershill and Cumnock are the test case on this.

They are not going to change the condition that in order to hold a licence you need to play in a league which is part of the Pyramid.

As I said, they may allow west Junior clubs to begin the process, but it will ultimately reach the point where it needs to be clear that these clubs will play in the Pyramid for 20-21 before they get a Licence.

We're nowhere near that.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, Marten said:

The SJFA claim they want in. But they don't act that way. If they really want in, they'd co-operate a bit more and drop unreasonable demands like the east & west joining at the same time and instead allowing the west to move in whilst working on a solution for the east (and north!).

Clubs like Petershill and Cumnock shouldn't be penalised over what Tom Johnston gets up to and from an SFA Board perspective it's probably more the EoS that is viewed as the main obstacle to progress right now rather than the SJFA. There were some suggestions on this particular subforum that EoS clubs were going to be penalised on licensing because of that. That was every bit as wrong-headed as the suggestion that Petershill, Cumnock and any other junior club that can meet the requirements should be blocked from the SFA. Having more clubs in the Scottish Cup is a good thing.

[Marten]

42 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Clubs like Petershill and Cumnock shouldn't be penalised over what Tom Johnston gets up to and from an SFA Board perspective it's probably more the EoS that is viewed as the main obstacle to progress right now rather than the SJFA. There were some suggestions on this particular subforum that EoS clubs were going to be penalised on licensing because of that. That was every bit as wrong-headed as the suggestion that Petershill, Cumnock and any other junior club that can meet the requirements should be blocked from the SFA. Having more clubs in the Scottish Cup is a good thing.

I don't want clubs like Petershill and Cumnock penalised. But if the clubs really care about it that much, why did apparently not a single club, not even these 2, raise this at the SJFA AGM? All that needed doing was either give TJ the instruction to drop the "all in" (that already didn't apply to the north) approach and just get the west in the period, or pass a motion that going forward, the 3 SJFA regions will be represented individually on the PWG. In my opinion the latter would be the best approach to find a solution as each region have their own wishes / challenges, with the West clearly being the easiest to resolve.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Marten

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Clubs like Petershill and Cumnock shouldn't be penalised over what Tom Johnston gets up to and from an SFA Board perspective it's probably more the EoS that is viewed as the main obstacle to progress right now rather than the SJFA. There were some suggestions on this particular subforum that EoS clubs were going to be penalised on licensing because of that. That was every bit as wrong-headed as the suggestion that Petershill, Cumnock and any other junior club that can meet the requirements should be blocked from the SFA. Having more clubs in the Scottish Cup is a good thing.

How can the EOSFL be seen as the main obstacle when they voted to let the west in? IT was TJ that said no to this

[Arthurlie1981]

I don't want clubs like Petershill and Cumnock penalised. But if the clubs really care about it that much, why did apparently not a single club, not even these 2, raise this at the SJFA AGM? All that needed doing was either give TJ the instruction to drop the "all in" (that already didn't apply to the north) approach and just get the west in the period, or pass a motion that going forward, the 3 SJFA regions will be represented individually on the PWG. In my opinion the latter would be the best approach to find a solution as each region have their own wishes / challenges, with the West clearly being the easiest to resolve.

That’s not how the AGM works. All motions have to been several months before. They cannot be raised on the day. I can’t remember what date it was confirmed that the SFA informed that it definitely wasn’t happening but if it was after the date all motions had to be in for then it won’t have been raised. On your point of the regions being represented I can’t see that happening. The results of the vote put the power with the SJFA. The regions have no national power.

There is a lack of understanding of the politics of Junior football from people who haven’t been involved in it. It’s not as straight forward as you think.

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Clubs like Petershill and Cumnock shouldn't be penalised over what Tom Johnston gets up to and from an SFA Board perspective it's probably more the EoS that is viewed as the main obstacle to progress right now rather than the SJFA. There were some suggestions on this particular subforum that EoS clubs were going to be penalised on licensing because of that. That was every bit as wrong-headed as the suggestion that Petershill, Cumnock and any other junior club that can meet the requirements should be blocked from the SFA. Having more clubs in the Scottish Cup is a good thing.

Are you saying Junior clubs should have access to Licencing without being part of the Pyramid?

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

That’s not how the AGM works. All motions have to been several months before. They cannot be raised on the day. I can’t remember what date it was confirmed that the SFA informed that it definitely wasn’t happening but if it was after the date all motions had to be in for then it won’t have been raised. On your point of the regions being represented I can’t see that happening. The results of the vote put the power with the SJFA. The regions have no national power.

There is a lack of understanding of the politics of Junior football from people who haven’t been involved in it. It’s not as straight forward as you think.

What can happen though is that the issue can be raised under AOB for discussion, and if there is a demand an EGM can be called at some point to vote on any new proposals/amendments to existing rules or agreements.  There is also nothing to prevent the individual leagues being invited to attend PWG meetings.

I still find it telling that nobody held TJ to account at the AGM.

[LongTimeLurker]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Are you saying Junior clubs should have access to Licencing without being part of the Pyramid?

Now that the juniors have decided to join, of course they should. The main national cup competition should be open to all clubs that have the appropriate infrastructure.

[Burnie_man]

Now that the juniors have decided to join, of course they should. The main national cup competition should be open to all clubs that have the appropriate infrastructure.

So you're encouraging Junior clubs to have their cake and eat it as there is no guarantee that any current Junior leagues will enter the Pyramid. None.

Allow them to be Licenced and the chances of that increase, surely you see that?

At the very outset, TJ wanted access to Licening "for his clubs" whilst remaining outside the Pyramid........

[LongTimeLurker]

I think it's unfortunate that the west and east superleagues are not tier 6 this season. Hope to see dozens of more clubs in the Scottish Cup every season through the new associate membership setup. Not really bothered how the impasse on the pyramid gets solved as long as it gets solved quickly and although most of the blame lies with the SJFA leadership, I don't think the EoS has always been a perfect little angel child in all of this given the highly questionable manner in which the LL unfolded primarily to the benefit of EoS premier clubs. Up north the HL hasn't exactly burst a gut advancing the concept of the pyramid and that is a big part of why the status of Tayside is such a problem. Having lots of WRSJFA clubs follow the lead of Petershill and Cumnock is more likely to speed things along to a sensible conclusion than hinder it.

[Burnie_man]

I think it's unfortunate that the west and east superleagues are not tier 6 this season. Hope to see dozens of more clubs in the Scottish Cup every season through the new associate membership setup. Not really bothered how the impasse on the pyramid gets solved as long as it gets solved quickly and although most of the blame lies with the SJFA leadership, I don't think the EoS has always been a perfect little angel child in all of this given the highly questionable manner in which the LL unfolded primarily to the benefit of EoS premier clubs. Up north the HL hasn't exactly burst a gut advancing the concept of the pyramid and that is a big part of why the status of Tayside is such a problem. Having lots of WRSJFA clubs follow the lead of Petershill and Cumnock is more likely to speed things along to a sensible conclusion than hinder it.

What do you mean the EoS have not been a "perfect little angle child"? Their only beef in this is not having a competitor league in their territory at tier 6 and rightly so. They have no objection to the West coming in. You know that.

Allowing Junior clubs a Licence without any conclusive Pyramid entry then you wont get the sensible conclusion you wish.

Out of interest, which Junior club do you follow or connected with?

[Marten]

39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I think it's unfortunate that the west and east superleagues are not tier 6 this season. Hope to see dozens of more clubs in the Scottish Cup every season through the new associate membership setup. Not really bothered how the impasse on the pyramid gets solved as long as it gets solved quickly and although most of the blame lies with the SJFA leadership, I don't think the EoS has always been a perfect little angel child in all of this given the highly questionable manner in which the LL unfolded primarily to the benefit of EoS premier clubs. Up north the HL hasn't exactly burst a gut advancing the concept of the pyramid and that is a big part of why the status of Tayside is such a problem. Having lots of WRSJFA clubs follow the lead of Petershill and Cumnock is more likely to speed things along to a sensible conclusion than hinder it.

All of the blame regarding the west not being in the pyramid lies with the SJFA, even though they like to point their finger at the EOS. TJ doesn't really want pyramid access for "his teams", which is why he is deliberately putting down suggestions like both the East & West Superleagues at tier 6, even though he know that won't be possible for the East for multiple reasons (boundary, 2 leagues covering the same area etc.), that plan has rightly been shot down by the EOS & LL. The west could have been in already if it wasn't for the SJFA's unwillingness to co-operate.

If clubs are allowed access to licensing now, despite the SJFA not being willing to find solutions for the pyramid, then it defeats the whole point of the pyramid and licensing. Licensing should be a carrot kept in front of clubs to finally force through a change of attitude so a solution can be found.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Marten

[pipedreamer]

31 minutes ago, Marten said:

All of the blame regarding the west not being in the pyramid lies with the SJFA, even though they like to point their finger at the EOS. TJ doesn't really want pyramid access for "his teams", which is why he is deliberately putting down suggestions like both the East & West Superleagues at tier 6, even though he know that won't be possible for the East for multiple reasons (boundary, 2 leagues covering the same area etc.), that plan has rightly been shot down by the EOS & LL. The west could have been in already if it wasn't for the SJFA's unwillingness to co-operate.

If clubs are allowed access to licensing now, despite the SJFA not being willing to find solutions for the pyramid, then it defeats the whole point of the pyramid and licensing. Licensing should be a carrot kept in front of clubs to finally force through a change of attitude so a solution can be found.

Look at Talbot, if the Scottish scup entry for junior league and junior cup winners was removed, I’m sure they would have a different attitude to joining the pyramid given their club would be many thousands of pounds worse off given their recent runs in the competition. As long as they can stay junior and get that access they see no reason to push the issue, and for the rest, as long as the well supported clubs are still in their league so they can budget on an away support (silly business plan imo) they won’t bother their shirts either. The sfa can force the issue with licensing and Scottish cup access, it’s the only way they can do so.

 

Lets not forget that TJ tried to block the east superleague winners getting into the Scottish Cup when they decided to leave, the guy doesn’t give two sh!ts about any of the clubs unless they play in the west region in staunch junior country.

[LongTimeLurker]

Talbot would already be in the pyramid this season, if the EoS hadn't objected to having two east feeders. The EoS and LL can block changes to the pro/rel arrangements for the LL but club licensing is only up to the SFA Board, who were pushing the plan that would have enabled WRSJFA entry. Given that backdrop there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board are likely to see WRSJFA clubs as the bad guy in all of this because most SFA members probably don't give a flying one how many east feeders there are below the LL and will have a hard time seeing why it is supposed to matter. We'll see what happens but I'll be surprised if Petershill and Cumnock are treated any differently from Dunipace.

[pipedreamer]

28 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Talbot would already be in the pyramid this season, if the EoS hadn't objected to having two east feeders. The EoS and LL can block changes to the pro/rel arrangements for the LL but club licensing is only up to the SFA Board, who were pushing the plan that would have enabled WRSJFA entry. Given that backdrop there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board are likely to see WRSJFA clubs as the bad guy in all of this because most SFA members probably don't give a flying one how many east feeders there are below the LL and will have a hard time seeing why it is supposed to matter. We'll see what happens but I'll be surprised if Petershill and Cumnock are treated any differently from Dunipace.

Talbot would have been in the pyramid this season if it wasn’t for TJ physically blocking it when it was offered. That’s the reality.

 

To get licensed you must be playing in a pyramid league, as it stands, the WRSJFA is not a pyramid league, the declaration states this, dunipace play in a pyramid league, petershill and Cumnock do not. It’s the same as the box saying if you have floodlights or not, there’s no grey area, they will fail on that count. You can go the whole process before being told you need to join the SOSL like Talbot were, and Kelty were told to join the EoSL. Until the wrsjfa joins the pyramid then they won’t get a license. TJ working towards it (or not as is the case) doesn’t change that commitment one bit until it happens.

[Burnie_man]

Talbot would already be in the pyramid this season, if the EoS hadn't objected to having two east feeders. The EoS and LL can block changes to the pro/rel arrangements for the LL but club licensing is only up to the SFA Board, who were pushing the plan that would have enabled WRSJFA entry. Given that backdrop there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board are likely to see WRSJFA clubs as the bad guy in all of this because most SFA members probably don't give a flying one how many east feeders there are below the LL and will have a hard time seeing why it is supposed to matter. We'll see what happens but I'll be surprised if Petershill and Cumnock are treated any differently from Dunipace.

The EoS and its members made it abundantly clear to the SFA that there were no objections to the west coming in, that was also communicated at PWG over the preceeding 12 months. Once again, you already know this, this is going over old ground. Look elsewhere for your bogeyman.

 

The LL rejected the plan 15-0, the EoS 39-0, if the SFA continue with their plan they will achieve nothing.

 

Again, what angle are coming from with this, involved with a west Junior club?