BBC bias

[SandyCromarty]

2 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

All I’m saying Sandy, is that in this country, UK or Scotland, we are far too quick to denigrate entrepreneurs who turn out to be billionaires. Without those capitalists, we would be in a much poorer state both in terms of technology advances and prosperity.

Im afraid socialism doesn’t quite ‘cut the mustard’.

I have absolutely no argument against entrepreneurs starting businesses and employing a workforce, therebye providing income to their workforce who then spend monies into the economy and pay taxes, in it's simplistic terms that is Capitalism and it works.

However I do take exception to those who practice tax avoidance on a large scale.

I was self employed on an consultancy basis worldwide and yet I duly paid my taxes in the UK that my accountant determined I was due to pay, I'm sure you do the same.  

Jeff Bezos's Amazon is known as the most aggressive tax avoidance company, one year Amazon paid £6.3 Million in Corporate tax in the UK despite raking in more than £13 Billion in sales, you might say that he had other overheads but c'mon £13 Billion gross and paying minimum wage to the workforce. In 2019 it was found that the Amazon Group paid just £2.6 billion in tax on it's income so far in the decade despite achieving revenues of just under £700 Billion.

Trump, Starbucks and no doubt Elon Musk all avoid taxes, the list is endless, but I'll mention a family here in the UK. which you probably have never heard of but their tax avoidance is legendary.

The Vestey's for over 120 years have been involved in raisng meat in South America, transporting it by their Shipping Line Blue Star and selling it in the UK through their Dewhurst Butcher chain and Fray Bentos, one of the companies they own is Donald Russell based in Inverurie, for over 30 years early in the last century they paid around £30 in taxes, the case v the Inland Revenue was revealing for the family considering by this time they had bought a peerage so they upped the taxes paid but it was still a pittance compared to income, The  various tax dodges were elaborate but one of the best was by setting up an offshore trust for all of the family's children they could then pay profits into the trust offshore and then draw considerable salaries as payment for administering the trust.  

The family enjoys an establishment position and are very wealthy but in my opinion they are just as crooked as all the robbers languishing in prison

Edited March 24, 2021 by SandyCromarty

[Dawson Park Boy]

4 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

I have absolutely no argument against entrepreneurs starting businesses and employing a workforce, therebye providing income to their workforce who then spend monies into the economy and pay taxes, in it's simplistic terms that is Capitalism and it works.

However I do take exception to those who practice tax avoidance on a large scale.

I was self employed on an consultancy basis worldwide and yet I duly paid my taxes in the UK that my accountant determined I was due to pay, I'm sure you do the same.  

Jeff Bezos's Amazon is known as the most aggressive tax avoidance company, one year Amazon paid £6.3 Million in Corporate tax in the UK despite raking in more than £13 Billion in sales, you might say that he had other overheads but c'mon £13 Billion gross and paying minimum wage to the workforce. In 2019 it was found that the Amazon Group paid just £2.6 billion in tax on it's income so far in the decade despite achieving revenues of just under £700 Billion.

Trump, Starbucks and no doubt Elon Musk all avoid taxes, the list is endless, but I'll mention a family here in the UK. which you probably have never heard of but their tax avoidance is legendary.

The Vestey's for over 120 years have been involved in raisng meat in South America, transporting it by their Shipping Line Blue Star and selling it in the UK through their Dewhurst Butcher chain and Fray Bentos, one of the companies they own is Donald Russell based in Inverurie, for over 30 years early in the last century they paid around £30 in taxes, the case v the Inland Revenue was revealing for the family considering by this time they had bought a peerage so they upped the taxes paid but it was still a pittance compared to income, Thie  various tax dodges were elaborate but one of the best was by setting up an offshore trust for all of the family's children they could then pay profits into the trust offshore and then draw considerable salaries as payment for administering the trust.  

 

 

 

Sandy- yes, there is no excuse for tax evasion. You are absolutely correct.

However, I don’t altogether blame the perpetrators. Governments are the ones who set the rules and usually they are far too complicated in that it allows lawyers and accountants to find loopholes. Unfortunately, the evaders are normally one step ahead.

A classic example was the Rangers tax case which took years to be properly decided. Any sensible person could see that money paid to players was wages and not loan repayments. However, there are lots of smart people out there who construct all these ‘wheezes’.

I do know a little about this field as I practised as a CA all my adult life. Funnily enough I had a partner who was married to a Vestey(James) but not part of the family with all the money.

Regarding the global titans like Amazon, you need worldwide tax agreements as they have their intellectual property rights in America with all the trading companies scattered throughout the world to obtain maximum tax efficiency. The only way to get them is to levy a sales tax in the country where the sale is made and something along those lines is currently being mooted.

Finding it hard to discover that I might agree with you on something.You definitely come over better when you cut out the bad language.

[DiegoDiego]

There's a difference between countries which purport to be socialist but aren't attempting to compete in a capitalist world system and a capitalist world system which prioritises growth above even above the conservation of the planet.
Bear in mind Cuba is apparently the most ecologically sustainable developed country on earth.

But the examples we have of actual socialist counties include those which massively harmed the environment. I don't think there's much difference between the two.

I don't get what part of the socialist ideology suggests it's better for the environment than any other form of governance. Capitalist or socialist, you're still going to have to either damage the environment to make the things you need or import those things from countries which do so, no?

I may well be missing something here but I don't really get it.

[HalfCutNinja]

4 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

But the examples we have of actual socialist counties include those which massively harmed the environment. I don't think there's much difference between the two.

I don't get what part of the socialist ideology suggests it's better for the environment than any other form of governance. Capitalist or socialist, you're still going to have to either damage the environment to make the things you need or import those things from countries which do so, no?

I may well be missing something here but I don't really get it.

Capitalism depends on perpetual consumerism and extraction/exploitation of resources for profit so inevitably would be more damaging than a socialist society which has removed the profit motivator and need for perpetual consumerism for continual growth.

Both would inevitably be damaging, but logicially capitalism much more so.

[DiegoDiego]

Capitalism depends on perpetual consumerism and extraction/exploitation of resources for profit so inevitably would be more damaging than a socialist society which has removed the profit motivator and need for perpetual consumerism for continual growth.
Both would inevitably be damaging, but logicially capitalism much more so.

Surely all forms of growth rely on that though, be they capitalist or socialist? How can socialist regimes improve public goods like schools and infrastructure without growth?

Sorry for dragging this off topic but I've never really got round to looking into this depth, as with so many things (e.g. diet) you very quickly seem to run in to proselytising nutters on both sides.

[HalfCutNinja]

2 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

Surely all forms of growth rely on that though, be they capitalist or socialist? How can socialist regimes improve public goods like schools and infrastructure without growth?

Sorry for dragging this off topic but I've never really got round to looking into this depth, as with so many things (e.g. diet) you very quickly seem to run in to proselytising nutters on both sides.

It does, but a good example would be socialism doesn't require you to have a new phone every year. A capitalist economic system does, basically. That's why most people on a contract get sent a new phone every year whether they want it or not, and whether their old phone is still working and adequate or not.

This means that the precious metals etc used to manufacture phones continue to get mined at a much faster rate than is necessary in order to sustain this economic model. At some point soon humankind is going to have to move away from this model to one based on needs not desires, as it is unsustainable and inevitably will lead to exhaustion of most resources. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

25 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

It does, but a good example would be socialism doesn't require you to have a new phone every year. A capitalist economic system does, basically. That's why most people on a contract get sent a new phone every year whether they want it or not, and whether their old phone is still working and adequate or not.

This means that the precious metals etc used to manufacture phones continue to get mined at a much faster rate than is necessary in order to sustain this economic model. At some point soon humankind is going to have to move away from this model to one based on needs not desires, as it is unsustainable and inevitably will lead to exhaustion of most resources. 

Are you saying that to get to this socialist ‘promised land’ you’d be happy to live like the Cubans or Venezuelans?

Ive been and seen it and - No thanks.

[HalfCutNinja]

24 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Are you saying that to get to this socialist ‘promised land’ you’d be happy to live like the Cubans or Venezuelans?

Ive been and seen it and - No thanks.

No. Though its worth remembering the majority of the problems these countries face are actually the result of the economic sanctions imposed on them by capitalist countries who don't want their people to see other forms of government be successful.

If you're happy to live in a world where half the world are starving and the other half eating themselves to death, and where three people own more wealth than the other 7.8 billion, or think this is in any way sustainable, then best of luck to you.

[Dawson Park Boy]

12 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

No. Though its worth remembering the majority of the problems these countries face are actually the result of the economic sanctions imposed on them by capitalist countries who don't want their people to see other forms of government be successful.

If you're happy to live in a world where half the world are starving and the other half eating themselves to death, and where three people own more wealth than the other 7.8 billion, or think this is in any way sustainable, then best of luck to you.

Venezuela had a thriving oil and gas industry, then nationalised the oil companies thus impoverishing the citizenry.

Socialist madness!

All sounds wonderful on paper but hopeless in practice.

In fact I understand that Venezuela are now reintroducing some private enterprise and there are signs of improvement.

[jakedee]

Venezuela had a thriving oil and gas industry, then nationalised the oil companies thus impoverishing the citizenry.
Socialist madness!
All sounds wonderful on paper but hopeless in practice.
In fact I understand that Venezuela are now reintroducing some private enterprise and there are signs of improvement.

Sanctions by the US on Venezuela's oil exports didn't help.

[HalfCutNinja]

9 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Venezuela had a thriving oil and gas industry, then nationalised the oil companies thus impoverishing the citizenry.

Socialist madness!

All sounds wonderful on paper but hopeless in practice.

In fact I understand that Venezuela are now reintroducing some private enterprise and there are signs of improvement.

That's not what happened at all, but I suspect it wouldn't be worth wasting the time attempting to educate you.

Just FYI though, Chavez halved poverty in ten years. 

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Sandy- yes, there is no excuse for tax evasion. You are absolutely correct.

However, I don’t altogether blame the perpetrators. Governments are the ones who set the rules and usually they are far too complicated in that it allows lawyers and accountants to find loopholes. Unfortunately, the evaders are normally one step ahead.

A classic example was the Rangers tax case which took years to be properly decided. Any sensible person could see that money paid to players was wages and not loan repayments. However, there are lots of smart people out there who construct all these ‘wheezes’.

I do know a little about this field as I practised as a CA all my adult life. Funnily enough I had a partner who was married to a Vestey(James) but not part of the family with all the money.

Regarding the global titans like Amazon, you need worldwide tax agreements as they have their intellectual property rights in America with all the trading companies scattered throughout the world to obtain maximum tax efficiency. The only way to get them is to levy a sales tax in the country where the sale is made and something along those lines is currently being mooted.

Finding it hard to discover that I might agree with you on something.You definitely come over better when you cut out the bad language.

The word evasion regarding tax is an absolute no no according to a manager of a Cayman Islands bank manager, (from Motherwell originally) who my wife and I met by chance in a Miami Hotel and we spent some time socialising, apparently the working reference is Tax Deferment along the lines of Retirement Accounts and Deferred Annuities which in themselves are perfectly legal but of course that two and others can be amended by the bean counters and legal eagles into other grey areas.

That's why offshore trusts are drawn to the likes of Cayman Banks, then again the Royal Bank and various other UK high street banks are located in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, I did hear, though I'm not sure it's true, that the UK Gov had gained access to accounts in those banks.

A lot of guys working overseas tend to avoid paying any tax and take up residency in Spain and Thailand etc, thats well and good until you return to the UK and ask the government for something, then it's questions of where have you been there was an offshore electrical guy years ago never paying tax and he had a boarding house in Bournemouth run in his wife's name, this was back in the day when Councils doled out grants for property refurbishment, all went well until the fool applied for a grant for a new roof in his name, obviously the wife couldn't provide evidence of how she bought the property and they lost the lot once they were referred to the Revenue.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

16 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Venezuela had a thriving oil and gas industry, then nationalised the oil companies thus impoverishing the citizenry.

Socialist madness!

All sounds wonderful on paper but hopeless in practice.

In fact I understand that Venezuela are now reintroducing some private enterprise and there are signs of improvement.

I've been and am critical of Maduro but this is a blindingly daft take given 1- sanctions and 2- Chavez's pretty unimpeachable record on poverty reduction. 

[Guest TheJTS98]

Is it just me, or is there a three-posters-in-one situation here?

Some strikingly similar writing styles on display.

At least two-in-one, I'm pretty sure.

Edited March 24, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

3 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

Is it just me, or is there a three-posters-in-one situation here?

Some strikingly similar writing styles on display.

At least two-in-one, I'm pretty sure.

I think it's just you x 

[Dawson Park Boy]

5 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

Is it just me, or is there a three-posters-in-one situation here?

Some strikingly similar writing styles on display.

At least two-in-one, I'm pretty sure.

Explain, please.

[Guest TheJTS98]

2 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Explain, please.

To which one of you?

[Dawson Park Boy]

11 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

To which one of you?

You can start with me.

I only post for myself.

[jakedee]

Newsnight stating "that some Unionists will claim that the 4% increase to SNHS staff is to be funded by the record borrowing at historic low interest rates by Westminster.
If so, why not extend it to the rUK then?

[Billy Jean King]

I see BBC has quietly dropped prefixing the AZ vaccine with "Oxford" since the supply shitstorm ramped up. Also noticed at least twice today it's now an "Anglo Swedish" product. Utter charlatans.