What is the point of Labour ?

[orfc]

You'll get someone saying you should vote green or some nonsense, in FPTP the vote of choice for people who want to avoid responsibility but take the moral high ground in whatever happens afterwards

As for the Diet Tories lark, if you call the SNP the Tartan Tories you soon get the howls of outrage, but none of the understanding that it's just the same daft name calling in reverse

15 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

My post is quite clearly not framed around any SNP obsession and it wasn't directly aimed at your post otherwise I would have quoted you. 

It shouldn't need to be explained further if you had properly read and understood my post but for the benefit of doubt I reject the idea that Labour are currently merely "Tory-lite" or Diet Tories or Red Tories or whatever creativity devoid name on the go. This is lazy framing and has zero real world application of nuance and balance. 

Also as a side note it's always funny to see people struggle with the concept that even if Labour were Tory-lite that to most people that's preferable still to the full flavoured version.

Considering the options for the electorate it's either vote for Labour or get the Tories. Most people don't view them as the same party no matter how much some will try and frame it.

Who would you personally and realistically recommend the UK electorate to vote for if they were to want an improvement in their lives? 

 

[RuMoore]

15 minutes ago, Jeff Venom said:

It's super cute the way Labour fanboys see Labour getting a toatie wee shot at the big job from time to time with the FPTP system routinely returning right wing govs to WM (for what, 100 years?) as the electorate being 'centrist' and it somehow being an acceptable status quo for the Scottish electorate. Labour, like the Tories, can get absolutely fucked.

If this is aimed at myself it's hilarious to think I'm a Labour "fanboy". 

What's your suggested alternative? 

13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 

I don’t live in Scotland and couldn’t give a shite about the SNP or Scottish Independence. 
 

Starmer’s ham fisted triangulation, aiming for the centre and grabbing the centre right has alienated me to the point I can’t vote for Labour any more. 
 

I think it might work electorally but what’s the point if they’re not Labour any more. And that party isn’t the Labour Party I knew.

That's all completely fair and reasonable. 

Is the area you stay a straight shoot out between Plaid and Labour? 

[picklish]

Labour fanboys who can't even bring themselves to admit it are the new shy Tories

[coprolite]

6 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

If this is aimed at myself it's hilarious to think I'm a Labour "fanboy". 

What's your suggested alternative? 

That's all completely fair and reasonable. 

Is the area you stay a straight shoot out between Plaid and Labour? 

It’s fairly solid labour with a big Lib Dem presence on the council. No real chance of going blue.

I think we’d a Green candidate instead of Plaid at the last election because they did a pact.

Going for the centre ground is short termist. Supporting a party that does that is also short termist.

The Tory right didn’t get their way by backing David Cameron; they got it by backing Farage. I don’t share the view that a vote for a proper left leaning party is a wasted vote at all. 
 

I understand the incrementalism argument, that Labour would be an improvement, but there’s an opportunity cost to accepting that minuscule improvement in exchange for the potential improvement in living standards and social justice that they should be campaigning for.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RuMoore said:

They want rid of the Tories and generally speaking the electorate are centrist leaning. 

Polls don't suggest this. Even a majority of Tory voters support the nationalisation of water in England and Wales, for example (it's already nationalised in Scotland and Northern Ireland). Corbyn-era Labour policies were very popular when polled. Starmer has had no need to do what he's done, winning on socialist policies would be very achievable in the current context. There's no Brexit which wrecked Labour in 2019, there's now a struggling SNP in Scotland rather than an ascendent one, and the Tories are on their death bed. This also comes off the back of recent economic precedent where Johnson's furlough spending was popular and Truss's free market fundamentalism was slaughtered. The setting appears ripe, the stars have aligned, but completely the wrong person is in charge of the Labour party for it. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[RuMoore]

5 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It’s fairly solid labour with a big Lib Dem presence on the council. No real chance of going blue.

I think we’d a Green candidate instead of Plaid at the last election because they did a pact.

Going for the centre ground is short termist. Supporting a party that does that is also short termist.

The Tory right didn’t get their way by backing David Cameron; they got it by backing Farage. I don’t share the view that a vote for a proper left leaning party is a wasted vote at all. 
 

I understand the incrementalism argument, that Labour would be an improvement, but there’s an opportunity cost to accepting that minuscule improvement in exchange for the potential improvement in living standards and social justice that they should be campaigning for.

Lucky for you my area is SNP or Tories at present... Lib Dem vote utterly collapsed in recent years.

I wouldn't really say I support any political party fundamentally and feel comfortable voting for the lesser of two evils at different points. Of course this is extremely controversial and worthy of vitriol but generally speaking I thought Blairs Labour were good, introduced progressive policies and made some noble changes in society. I don't think Starmer will be able to do as good considering the decade + we've had of Tory cost cutting policy but it's certainly better than the current crop of Tories in charge. 

[RuMoore]

2 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Polls don't suggest this. Even a majority of Tory voters support the nationalisation of water in England and Wales, for example (it's already nationalised in Scotland and Northern Ireland). Corbyn-era Labour policies were very popular when polled. Starmer has had no need to do what he's done, winning on socialist policies would be very achievable in the current context. There's no Brexit which wrecked Labour in 2019, there's now a struggling SNP in Scotland rather than an ascendent one, and the Tories are on their death bed. This also comes off the back of recent economic precedent where Johnson's furlough spending was popular and Truss's free market fundamentalism was slaughtered. The setting appears ripe, the stars have aligned, but completely the wrong person is in charge of the Labour party for it. 

I did say generally speaking as in when presented with two options in my life time they've generally went for the centre types. Cameron and May had success from the centre ground as did Blair and Co before. 

You're correct that Labour policy under Corbyn was popular but he wasn't the man to deliver it and voters hated him for multiple reasons. Brexit played a massive part but it wasn't the only factor in his failures, Keir has done well to mitigate these factors and win voters back that would have never entertained Corbyn being in charge, anecdotally speaking moronic voters view "leftys" as a threat to what they believe in and taking Brexit off the table Keir appeals more to these people whereas lazy communist scare tactics worked so easily with Corbyn. 

[Granny Danger]

Democracy is about choice.  Choice is always going to be limited by certain factors, ie the MSM being almost exclusively controlled by vested financial interest and the same MSM reporting on the issues important to those interests and skewing said reporting.

However the biggest obstacle to democracy in the U.K. is FPTP.  This marginalises the interests and voting intentions of millions, it also encourages Labour to vie for the centrist/right-of-centre votes.

[StellarHibee]

51 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

You're correct that Labour policy under Corbyn was popular but he wasn't the man to deliver it and voters hated him for multiple reasons.

No, voters hated him for one reason. A reason that was fundamentally false. If Starmer was to suddenly start promoting the same policies that were so popular under Corbyn, the neo-liberal machine would soon use their lacky's in the media to invent a reason to make voters hate him as well. 

It's really quite sad that such a large number of people (including yourself) can't see the con job being pulled right in front of your eyes whenever there's an opportunity to make a positive difference.

[Billy Jean King]

Let's not kid ourselves here. Our resident multi alias posters on this thread would love nothing more than a Labour implosion and four more years of an ever more right wing Tory govt at Westminster. There "I'm centrist Labour (as a floater)" act is fooling no one no matter how the try to dress it up.

[orfc]

5 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

Let's not kid ourselves here. Our resident multi alias posters on this thread would love nothing more than a Labour implosion and four more years of an ever more right wing Tory govt at Westminster. There "I'm centrist Labour (as a floater)" act is fooling no one no matter how the try to dress it up.

The one remaining nationalist feverishly poking away at their keyboard is more likely given the SNPs current showing

What will get you four more years of Tory is telling people not to vote for the option most likely to beat them, but at least you'll have kept your purity and won't have to make real decisions with consequences

[StellarHibee]

1 minute ago, orfc said:

The one remaining nationalist feverishly poking away at their keyboard is more likely given the SNPs current showing

What will get you four more years of Tory is telling people not to vote for the option most likely to beat them, but at least you'll have kept your purity and won't have to make real decisions with consequences

Because becoming them is really "beating them". Unionists really are an overly simplistic breed.

[RuMoore]

37 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

No, voters hated him for one reason. A reason that was fundamentally false. If Starmer was to suddenly start promoting the same policies that were so popular under Corbyn, the neo-liberal machine would soon use their lacky's in the media to invent a reason to make voters hate him as well. 

It's really quite sad that such a large number of people (including yourself) can't see the con job being pulled right in front of your eyes whenever there's an opportunity to make a positive difference.

Nope, you're wrong, as per usual. 

There was lots of different reasons Corbyn failed. Multiple of them were valid, a few were a load of shite. 

Your last part is very unserious, as expected. 

 

[FFCinthearea]

19 hours ago, StellarHibee said:

The electorate: "Yeah, he's the guy who will bring the change we need".

Quite right too.   If people can't afford to have kids then why keep producing them and then moan about being skint?

[StellarHibee]

1 minute ago, FFCinthearea said:

Quite right too.   If people can't afford to have kids then why keep producing them and then moan about being skint?

So what about people who can afford kids, have kids, then later on they fall on hard times? Perhaps they should adopt the China method and simply drown them?

[Salvo Montalbano]

13 minutes ago, orfc said:

What will get you four more years of Tory is telling people not to vote for the option most likely to beat them, but at least you'll have kept your purity and won't have to make real decisions with consequences

If Starmer is "winning" then he won't need many (if any) seats in Scotland, so not voting for Labour will have little to no effect. So is he "winning" or is he not?

[StellarHibee]

7 minutes ago, FFCinthearea said:

Quite right too.   If people can't afford to have kids then why keep producing them and then moan about being skint?

Also, why do you think it's a good idea to punish kids for being born? Particularly in a "rich and prosperous union" that was sold to Scotland back in 2014?

[Jeff Venom]

Unionists: "Hey Scotland, the quickest way to stop the Tories is to vote Labour!"

Aye that's historically worked really well. Fucking state of the UK  

[FFCinthearea]

15 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

Also, why do you think it's a good idea to punish kids for being born? Particularly in a "rich and prosperous union" that was sold to Scotland back in 2014?

Blame the parents.

[FFCinthearea]

23 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

So what about people who can afford kids, have kids, then later on they fall on hard times? Perhaps they should adopt the China method and simply drown them?

That'll be the exception rather than the rule.