Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

It's not their responsibility...

It isn't mine either. Or yours.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I bet you wouldn't. I bet you'd find other reasons to absolve people of responsibility for their actions.

The things ive mentioned are the biggest causes of people turning to addiction, so no i probably wouldnt. I wont give up on you either, because it takes a really huge c**t to write people off entirely because of a character flaw or behaviour that may have been imparted on them.

[Dee Man]

I can sympathise with anyone who ends up a user for escapism due to being sexually abused or any other traumatic experiences that they'd rather block out but lets not pretend every junkie is a victim of a terrible childhood. 

Purely anecdotal, but when we were growing up one of our mates had a brother who was a skaghead - the guy was a state. We told our mate to avoid taking that route at all costs as his brother started regularly offering him 'a fix' but unfortunately he ended up following the same path. This in turn led to his easily influenced best mate getting hooked as well. Both of these guys came from stable backgrounds and were well warned by their peers of the consequences which they were already well aware of anyway. I was talking to his girlfriend one day who said he came home with a black bin bag which she later went through and found a load of stolen goods including war medals. She broke up with him, all of us told him to do one and he left town soon after. He's dead now after deliberately taking an overdose while his brother who got him into it is still alive.

Obviously there is no way to calculate the percentage of junkies who have chosen to do so for escapism linked to trauma and those who have chosen to out of boredom but I'm quite uneasy seeing junkies getting labelled as victims of society when that is not always the case. 

 

[Bairnardo]

I can sympathise with anyone who ends up a user for escapism due to being sexually abused or any other traumatic experiences that they'd rather block out but lets not pretend every junkie is a victim of a terrible childhood. 
Purely anecdotal, but when we were growing up one of our mates had a brother who was a skaghead - the guy was a state. We told our mate to avoid taking that route at all costs as his brother started regularly offering him 'a fix' but unfortunately he ended up following the same path. This in turn led to his easily influenced best mate getting hooked as well. Both of these guys came from stable backgrounds and were well warned by their peers of the consequences which they were already well aware of anyway. I was talking to his girlfriend one day who said he came home with a black bin bag which she later went through and found a load of stolen goods including war medals. She broke up with him, all of us told him to do one and he left town soon after. He's dead now after deliberately taking an overdose while his brother who got him into it is still alive.
Obviously there is no way to calculate the percentage of junkies who have chosen to do so for escapism linked to trauma and those who have chosen to out of boredom but I'm quite uneasy seeing junkies getting labelled as victims of society when that is not always the case. 
 

Once someone tries heroin for the buzz, they can then become victims of the illness that is addiction. It doesnt have to be one or the other. The other person saying its one or the other is tibbermoresaint, who in doing so is making a raging arse of himself.

[Tibbermoresaint]

5 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

The things ive mentioned are the biggest causes of people turning to addiction, so no i probably wouldnt. I wont give up on you either, because it takes a really huge c**t to write people off entirely because of a character flaw or behaviour that may have been imparted on them.

The idea that personal responsibility is contingent on, for example, the level of poverty in a country is ludicrous. Surely you can see that?

People don't become junkies because of character flaws or behaviours that have been imparted upon them. They do so because they choose to.

[Tibbermoresaint]

4 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

7 minutes ago, Dee Man said:

I can sympathise with anyone who ends up a user for escapism due to being sexually abused or any other traumatic experiences that they'd rather block out but lets not pretend every junkie is a victim of a terrible childhood. 
Purely anecdotal, but when we were growing up one of our mates had a brother who was a skaghead - the guy was a state. We told our mate to avoid taking that route at all costs as his brother started regularly offering him 'a fix' but unfortunately he ended up following the same path. This in turn led to his easily influenced best mate getting hooked as well. Both of these guys came from stable backgrounds and were well warned by their peers of the consequences which they were already well aware of anyway. I was talking to his girlfriend one day who said he came home with a black bin bag which she later went through and found a load of stolen goods including war medals. She broke up with him, all of us told him to do one and he left town soon after. He's dead now after deliberately taking an overdose while his brother who got him into it is still alive.
Obviously there is no way to calculate the percentage of junkies who have chosen to do so for escapism linked to trauma and those who have chosen to out of boredom but I'm quite uneasy seeing junkies getting labelled as victims of society when that is not always the case. 
 

Once someone tries heroin for the buzz, they can then become victims of the illness that is addiction. It doesnt have to be one or the other. The other person saying its one or the other is tibbermoresaint, who in doing so is making a raging arse of himself.

Junkies aren't victims. 

[Dee Man]

1 minute ago, Bairnardo said:

4 minutes ago, Dee Man said:

I can sympathise with anyone who ends up a user for escapism due to being sexually abused or any other traumatic experiences that they'd rather block out but lets not pretend every junkie is a victim of a terrible childhood. 
Purely anecdotal, but when we were growing up one of our mates had a brother who was a skaghead - the guy was a state. We told our mate to avoid taking that route at all costs as his brother started regularly offering him 'a fix' but unfortunately he ended up following the same path. This in turn led to his easily influenced best mate getting hooked as well. Both of these guys came from stable backgrounds and were well warned by their peers of the consequences which they were already well aware of anyway. I was talking to his girlfriend one day who said he came home with a black bin bag which she later went through and found a load of stolen goods including war medals. She broke up with him, all of us told him to do one and he left town soon after. He's dead now after deliberately taking an overdose while his brother who got him into it is still alive.
Obviously there is no way to calculate the percentage of junkies who have chosen to do so for escapism linked to trauma and those who have chosen to out of boredom but I'm quite uneasy seeing junkies getting labelled as victims of society when that is not always the case. 
 

Once someone tries heroin for the buzz, they can then become victims of the illness that is addiction. It doesnt have to be one or the other. The other person saying its one or the other is tibbermoresaint, who in doing so is making a raging arse of himself.

I imagine far more often than not, someone who takes heroin will become addicted - it is not a secret how addictive it is. I'm not getting into a discussion about whether addiction is an illness or not - I'm purely giving one example (of two individuals) where they made the choice to inject despite knowing exactly what pitfalls lay ahead. My group of friends and I were the least surprised people on the planet when he was found dead. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The idea that personal responsibility is contingent on, for example, the level of poverty in a country is ludicrous. Surely you can see that?
People don't become junkies because of character flaws or behaviours that have been imparted upon them. They do so because they choose to.

Every single piece of scientific data on poverty and drug misuse shows a direct correlation. Look at the work of Harry Burns. Are there anomalies f**k yes, but the use of heroin amongst the upper classes is no where near the level of working class etc.
Am I saying that every single person who is a drug user had a traumatic childhood etc, no, but that in itself is the biggest contributor to drugs misuse amongst adults and older children. Are there those who simply just make the choice to use drugs and become hooked, well yes, but again wouldn’t it be better to help them get better than writing them off? Wouldnt it be better to turn them into a functioning member of society with a job or their own business and do something positive? No one is beyond help. There is a degree of choice in every decision to use drugs, but hopefully i’ve highlighted that for many that choice isnt simple.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

All junkies choose to become junkies.

Is that what this c***s argument is?

[parsforlife]

Every single piece of scientific data on poverty and drug misuse shows a direct correlation. Look at the work of Harry Burns. Are there anomalies f**k yes, but the use of heroin amongst the upper classes is no where near the level of working class etc.

 

Interestingly i read a study(which I’ll link too if I remember where the f**k I read it) that had drug use at similar levels across all spectrums of society across drug types as well.

 

What the big difference was was addiction rates. The theory being it poverty didn’t lead to drug use, but it did lead to drug users becoming addicted.

 

Edit- this may not be what I’m referring too, but it’s close enough http:// http://theconversation.com/many-people-use-drugs-but-heres-why-most-dont-become-addicts-35504

[Guest Moomintroll]

All junkies choose to become junkies.
Is that what this c***s argument is?

That's pretty much it yeah.

[Tibbermoresaint]

16 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Every single piece of scientific data on poverty and drug misuse shows a direct correlation. Look at the work of Harry Burns. Are there anomalies f**k yes, but the use of heroin amongst the upper classes is no where near the level of working class etc.
Am I saying that every single person who is a drug user had a traumatic childhood etc, no, but that in itself is the biggest contributor to drugs misuse amongst adults and older children. Are there those who simply just make the choice to use drugs and become hooked, well yes, but again wouldn’t it be better to help them get better than writing them off? Wouldnt it be better to turn them into a functioning member of society with a job or their own business and do something positive? No one is beyond help. There is a degree of choice in every decision to use drugs, but hopefully i’ve highlighted that for many that choice isnt simple.

I'm sure there is correlation. But causation? No.

[Bairnardo]

I imagine far more often than not, someone who takes heroin will become addicted - it is not a secret how addictive it is. I'm not getting into a discussion about whether addiction is an illness or not - I'm purely giving one example (of two individuals) where they made the choice to inject despite knowing exactly what pitfalls lay ahead. My group of friends and I were the least surprised people on the planet when he was found dead. 

And thas fine, since you are able to discuss it without being a dick....

No one should be abdicated of responsibility for their actions but that doesnt mean there arent external factors to why things happen. In the case of addiction, mental health is an over arching theme. Something that is just slowly now being destigmatised and better understood. Addiction will be slower still to destigmatise but it all links in. A big vicious circle.

Bottom line is, a junkie committing a crime should be punished accordingly, but like all criminals our justice system and our society should be equipped to rehabilitate. That it isn't obviously contributes to the spiral of re offending, being unable to rehabilitate etc.

And of course, not all junkies are criminals (outwith the consumption of drugs for the pedants) but society seems ill equipped to even rehabilitate those ones.

If someone cant see how all of those pieces and the many many more I havent mentioned but other have come together to form the big picture surrounding drug use and associated crime then that person is genuinely not worth talking to about it.

[Tibbermoresaint]

14 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Being a nice member of society is indeed a choice. As is spending hours trolling P&B I guess.

Over 4000 posts in 9 months. Looks like you've made your choice. Or maybe you haven't. Could it be society? Or poverty? Or inherent destructive impulses? Who can say?

[Bairnardo]

Over 4000 posts in 9 months. Looks like you've made your choice. Or maybe you haven't. Could it be society? Or poverty? Or inherent destructive impulses? Who can say?

Would you accept that mental illness can cause people to do things they wouldnt have done when they were well?

[Tibbermoresaint]

5 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

6 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Over 4000 posts in 9 months. Looks like you've made your choice. Or maybe you haven't. Could it be society? Or poverty? Or inherent destructive impulses? Who can say?

Would you accept that mental illness can cause people to do things they wouldnt have done when they were well?

Of course. Would you accept that mental illness doesn't absolve people of their responsibilities to the rest of society?

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Do you believe that all humans are of equal value?

I beleive that all humans deserve equal opportunity. "Value" is a subjective concept.

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Childhood sexual abuse does not cause people to go out and commit a large number of crimes in a very short time frame.

Where on earth are you getting this nonsense from?

Not every victim does, but lots do. Those who don't present with different symptoms.

I get it from years of experience.

[Tibbermoresaint]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I beleive that all humans deserve equal opportunity. "Value" is a subjective concept.

What about those who squander that opportunity?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Interestingly i read a study(which I’ll link too if I remember where the f**k I read it) that had drug use at similar levels across all spectrums of society across drug types as well.

What the big difference was was addiction rates. The theory being it poverty didn’t lead to drug use, but it did lead to drug users becoming addicted.

Opiate abuse is seen in upper classes yes, but quite often it appears to be use of non-heroin opiates like codeine and prescription drugs. Use of cocaine is as expected actually higher in upper class groups in terms of regular/habitual use, which actually given the comparative cost of heroin/cocaine shows the point about people with traumatic experiences using heroin to blot out psychological pain has significant merit. There is absolutely no doubt in upper classes there are people with heavy drug habits, i’ve encountered that, but many are functioning because they have the means to do so.