Israel lobby v Corbyn

[BigDoddyKane]

44 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Move the Kurds to Patagonia. 

you lost me but Im sure theres a point in there 

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

15 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...have a sneaking suspicion that 3500+ missles fired at Israeli cities is not the most effective way to do that. People understand the cynical game that Likud are playing  right now to keep Netanyahu in power but what's less well known is that there was supposed to be a Palestinian Authority election this year:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Palestinian_legislative_election

Hamas won the last one fifteen years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

but Fatah effectively subsequently staged a coup to keep control of the West Bank. It's not just Netanyahu that doesn't believe in a two-state solution along Oslo Accords lines and is happy to have a crisis right now that drives the domestic electorate away from notions of compromise making it impossible to proceed with one. Think this youtube clip (by an Azeri) sums up what's happening right now in a reasonably balanced way (even if I don't agree with it verbatim) at a depth that you are unlikely to obtain from any mainstream cable news outlet nowadays:

Way ahead. Both electorates need to stop voting in their extremists and vote instead for parties that are serious about a peaceful two-state solution.

The Israeli government which implemented the blockade was made up of a centrist coalition featuring Kadima and Labor. A Labor government also encouraged settlement in the West Bank from 1967. Who are the Israeli non extremist parties then? And why would people living in an open air prison want to elect political moderates to deal with that situation? 

[NotThePars]

You don't get a resolution to this while Israel presses ahead on turning itself an ethnostate on steroids. I don't see how they roll the clock back and bring about a meaningful two state solution either. The only feasible solution I've ever read is one state with both Israelis and Palestinians having full and equal rights but no idea how you get to there while war criminals like Netanyahu continue to hold sway along with the millions of others obstacles to overcome.

There's plenty of grassroots opposition to Israel's war crimes across the planet but the ongoing attempted criminalisation of non-violent opposition like BDS and the diseased discourse in the UK and US on even broaching the topic makes challenging the material support we give to Israel really difficult. It's the discussion on giving arms to Saudi Arabia but 10 times more brain damaging because the world's most dishonest fascists and reactionaries deploy ID pol and anti-woke language in the most cynical and contradictory way to shut down the discussion. 

I mean how do you even begin to challenge government figures saying anti-Zionism is automatically anti-Semitism or Labour MPs saying that anti-capitalism is anti-Semitism? 

[BigDoddyKane]

16 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

You don't get a resolution to this while Israel presses ahead on turning itself an ethnostate on steroids. I don't see how they roll the clock back and bring about a meaningful two state solution either. The only feasible solution I've ever read is one state with both Israelis and Palestinians having full and equal rights but no idea how you get to there while war criminals like Netanyahu continue to hold sway along with the millions of others obstacles to overcome.

There's plenty of grassroots opposition to Israel's war crimes across the planet but the ongoing attempted criminalisation of non-violent opposition like BDS and the diseased discourse in the UK and US on even broaching the topic makes challenging the material support we give to Israel really difficult. It's the discussion on giving arms to Saudi Arabia but 10 times more brain damaging because the world's most dishonest fascists and reactionaries deploy ID pol and anti-woke language in the most cynical and contradictory way to shut down the discussion. 

I mean how do you even begin to challenge government figures saying anti-Zionism is automatically anti-Semitism or Labour MPs saying that anti-capitalism is anti-Semitism? 

From the discussion so far it would seem the block is within Israel and why it wont compromise, whats at the root of that in your opinion , is it fear?, is it distrust of its neighbours, is it distrust of europe due to historical reasons and other areas where international support comes from , a combination of all or something else entirely?

How can we reach out to allay their fears if thats the case and is enough being done already to do that by everyone involved?

[BigDoddyKane]

Im talking about the Israeli people btw not any of their governments or parties

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Just noticed this. Hope you realise you've just set off a massive klaxon somewhere in deepest Buckinghamshire.

Brace yourself.

Not sure who you mean, but it's highly likely they're on ignore anyway.

Amazing that there are folk out there who have no problem with land forcibly being taken from indigenous people in Ulster and given to farmers from Scotland but would lose their mind if an Asian family moved in next door. 

[GordonS]

1 minute ago, BigDoddyKane said:

From the discussion so far it would seem the block is within Israel and why it wont compromise, whats at the root of that in your opinion , is it fear?, is it distrust of its neighbours, is it distrust of europe due to historical reasons and other areas where international support comes from , a combination of all or something else entirely?

How can we reach out to allay their fears if thats the case and is enough being done already to do that by everyone involved?

Israel won't compromise because it doesn't have to. It's no more compliacted than that. A handful of casualties from missiles every 2-3 years isn't enough to motivate them to make concessions.

The kind of thing that would motivate them would be boycotts, as worked with South Africa. That's why they and their lackeys in the west scream antisemitism at any suggestion of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS). They intentionally smear anything like this with ferocious and sustained accusations of anti-Semitism, to the point that lots of people assume there must be some truth in it.

Astonishingly, it's illegal to boycott Israeli goods in the US and the Tories want to introduce similar legislation here. In 2016, in response to local authorities excluding Israeli from procurement and moving their pension investments away from Israeli companies, the UK government issued a procurement notice banning councils for doing so. A challenge to this was eventually successful at the Supreme Court in 2020 but any legislation would override that.

In Germany they're so fanatical that they ban organisations that support BDS from all sorts of things, like banning Palestinian cultural groups from taking part in public festivals.

Israel actually benefits enormously from the conflict, because they get vast amounts of aid from the US. They're allowed to spend a quarter of the military aid on their own suppliers, which helps make them, per capita, the world's largest arms exporter. Why would they give anything up to the Palestinians when they've got almost everything they want and they can simply dismiss all pressure to compromise as anti-Semitism?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 hour ago, Stormzy said:

Move the Kurds to Patagonia. 

Hush now, wee man, The grown-ups are talking.

[Cheese]

41 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

So how is that concern for security the average Israeli has addressed? Is it addressed and who can address it?

On 2nd part and the neighbours Is it a real fear or an imagined one, could it happen? Given the historical input to current situation I can believe they fear it repeating itself on some scale

It is addressed by the current settler and apartheid policies.

There's no doubt that there are many in the region who would gladly see Israel destroyed and the Jewish people wiped out. Having the will and the capability to do so, up against one of the most advanced militaries in the world with the backing of the numerous US bases in the area, is another question.

 

[NotThePars]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

In Germany they're so fanatical that they ban organisations that support BDS from all sorts of things, like banning Palestinian cultural groups from taking part in public festivals.

 

On the one hand it's not great but at the same time... I get it.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

15 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Not sure who you mean, but it's highly likely they're on ignore anyway.

Amazing that there are folk out there who have no problem with land forcibly being taken from indigenous people in Ulster and given to farmers from Scotland but would lose their mind if an Asian family moved in next door. 

Oh, you lucky, lucky man!

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

On the one hand it's not great but at the same time... I get it.

[BigDoddyKane]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Israel won't compromise because it doesn't have to. It's no more compliacted than that. A handful of casualties from missiles every 2-3 years isn't enough to motivate them to make concessions.

The kind of thing that would motivate them would be boycotts, as worked with South Africa. That's why they and their lackeys in the west scream antisemitism at any suggestion of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS). They intentionally smear anything like this with ferocious and sustained accusations of anti-Semitism, to the point that lots of people assume there must be some truth in it.

Astonishingly, it's illegal to boycott Israeli goods in the US and the Tories want to introduce similar legislation here. In 2016, in response to local authorities excluding Israeli from procurement and moving their pension investments away from Israeli companies, the UK government issued a procurement notice banning councils for doing so. A challenge to this was eventually successful at the Supreme Court in 2020 but any legislation would override that.

In Germany they're so fanatical that they ban organisations that support BDS from all sorts of things, like banning Palestinian cultural groups from taking part in public festivals.

Israel actually benefits enormously from the conflict, because they get vast amounts of aid from the US. They're allowed to spend a quarter of the military aid on their own suppliers, which helps make them, per capita, the world's largest arms exporter. Why would they give anything up to the Palestinians when they've got almost everything they want and they can simply dismiss all pressure to compromise as anti-Semitism?

Good points

Its understandable why Germany feels that way with its history, a sense of guilt and amends I guess. 

The South Africa example is a good comparison, the international support seems not far off same level though your right on a boycott level its not

One  question. Do you think theres a sizeable section of the Israeli population who are open to some solution and would support it if any fears they had were allayed and they trusted it?  The change looks like it has to come from them and reaching out to them from all sides could be a step in the right direction maybe?

Mandela knew to get any solution for S.Africa it wasnt the ANC he needed to convince

 

[BigDoddyKane]

11 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

It is addressed by the current settler and apartheid policies.

There's no doubt that there are many in the region who would gladly see Israel destroyed and the Jewish people wiped out. Having the will and the capability to do so, up against one of the most advanced militaries in the world with the backing of the numerous US bases in the area, is another question.

 

So when those settler and apartheid policies go theres a good chance reconciliation  and real peace and security with its neighbours will come

I can believe that, so thats a selling point to the average Israeli , vote for this and this is the benefit and have those countries really sell it too, create cross border and cross country groups to cement that feeling and make it seem possible

[GordonS]

3 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

bad choice of words at uni

on point 1 why is the American Media/Lobby so pro Israel?

on point 2, why do you think Israel acts in the way it does? 

1. It's partly because of the large Jewish population in the US, but also their form of Christianity, which is pretty Old Testament. The term "Judeo-Christian" gets used a lot, which is weird when you think about it because there are three Abrahamic religions, and, y'know, Jesus. They generally identify quite strongly with the Jewish faith and that's in direct contrast to how they feel about Muslims.

Also, Americans know fk all about events outside their own country. Even the educated ones are shockingly naive. So they know about the Holocaust and they know about all Israel's neighbours attacking them, but that's it. There's a perception that it's all the Palestinians' fault for not accepting a deal that was on the table over 50 years ago, so hell mend them forever. 

2. Two main reasons - first and by far the biggest is that for over 200 years everyone, everywhere has been trying to kill the Jews. If anyone's entitled to a persecution complex it's the Jewish people. Even now, in the UK, some Jewish people will tell you that they keep a "go bag" - something they can pick up and run with if they need to. This is why Jews focussed on trades like diamonds and gold - they were banned from all the professions in many countries, and this was wealth that they could pick up and carry (unlike a factory or money in a bank). After the Holocaust they finally got back to their spiritual and ancient home, and then they spent the first few decades there trying not to be extinguished by their Arab neighbours. That's going to leave a massive collective scar.

The second, lesser reason  - and this gets controversial - is that the fundamental basis for the state of Israel is a belief that God said it's their land. This is what drives the settlements. 

Incidentally, for over 500 years the homeland of Judaism was Poland. Well over half of all the Jews in the world, perhaps as many as three-quarters, lived there at one time and it was called "the paradise of the Jews". That all came to a grim halt when the Russian, Prussian and Austro-Hungarian empires decided to carve Poland up among themselves at the end of the 18th century. You can draw a direct line from there to the Holocaust. Today there are more Jews in Manchester than in the whole of Poland.

[GordonS]

10 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

One  question. Do you think theres a sizeable section of the Israeli population who are open to some solution and would support it if any fears they had were allayed and they trusted it?  The change looks like it has to come from them and reaching out to them from all sides could be a step in the right direction maybe?

 

Definitely. Maybe about a third of the population. If change ever comes it will come through them.

It's interesting that Israeli newspapers like the Jerusalem Post (a really good read btw) are more critical of the Israeli government, and especially of Netanyahu, than any media in the UK apart from The Guardian.

[BigDoddyKane]

5 minutes ago, GordonS said:

1. It's partly because of the large Jewish population in the US, but also their form of Christianity, which is pretty Old Testament. The term "Judeo-Christian" gets used a lot, which is weird when you think about it because there are three Abrahamic religions, and, y'know, Jesus. They generally identify quite strongly with the Jewish faith and that's in direct contrast to how they feel about Muslims.

Also, Americans know fk all about events outside their own country. Even the educated ones are shockingly naive. So they know about the Holocaust and they know about all Israel's neighbours attacking them, but that's it. There's a perception that it's all the Palestinians' fault for not accepting a deal that was on the table over 50 years ago, so hell mend them forever. 

2. Two main reasons - first and by far the biggest is that for over 200 years everyone, everywhere has been trying to kill the Jews. If anyone's entitled to a persecution complex it's the Jewish people. Even now, in the UK, some Jewish people will tell you that they keep a "go bag" - something they can pick up and run with if they need to. This is why Jews focussed on trades like diamonds and gold - they were banned from all the professions in many countries, and this was wealth that they could pick up and carry (unlike a factory or money in a bank). After the Holocaust they finally got back to their spiritual and ancient home, and then they spent the first few decades there trying not to be extinguished by their Arab neighbours. That's going to leave a massive collective scar.

The second, lesser reason  - and this gets controversial - is that the fundamental basis for the state of Israel is a belief that God said it's their land. This is what drives the settlements. 

Incidentally, for over 500 years the homeland of Judaism was Poland. Well over half of all the Jews in the world, perhaps as many as three-quarters, lived there at one time and it was called "the paradise of the Jews". That all came to a grim halt when the Russian, Prussian and Austro-Hungarian empires decided to carve Poland up among themselves at the end of the 18th century. You can draw a direct line from there to the Holocaust. Today there are more Jews in Manchester than in the whole of Poland.

On point 2. That history would make any peoples that endured it distrust everyone , thats what needs addressed by all sides for them I think. They need to feel safe in any future solution, thats what needs sold to them by everyone involved. 

 

[GordonS]

12 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

Its understandable why Germany feels that way with its history, a sense of guilt and amends I guess. 

In 1991 I went to Poland and while we were there we visited Auschwitz. It was obviously as harrowing AF, yet it wasn't the worst thing I saw. In Łodz, where we were staying, they had a small concentration camp for children. I will never, ever get my head around that.

I suspect that if your grandfather had spent the war murdering Jewish children in Poland, there might be a bit of inter-generational guilt.

[GordonS]

4 hours ago, BigDoddyKane said:

On point 2. That history would make any peoples that endured it distrust everyone , thats what needs addressed by all sides for them I think. They need to feel safe in any future solution, thats what needs sold to them by everyone involved. 

 

100%. I'm sure a solution could be found that lets Israel keep the wall (with it being moved in some places) and with a joint Israeli-international presence on the external borders of Palestine.

But discussions on this kind of thing ended years ago. No politician likely to be in government in Israel talks about peace any more because they're not giving up the settlements or East Jerusalem. They've already won. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by GordonS

[aDONisSheep]

Matthew Offord (MP for Hendon) is offended by prominant anti-semite "Alexei Yuri Gagarin Siege of Stalingrad Glorious Five Year Plan Sputnik Tractor Dynamo Back Four Balowski Sayle"

Offord wants the BBC to pull Sayle's upcoming Desert Island Discs show.

I for one am glad that Offord has spoken up, otherwise I wouldn't have realised just how thick a cvnt he is!

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by aDONisSheep