New clubs in the West of Scotland

[stanley]

They had a system in England where the clubs in Level 9 would apply to Level 8 each year for promotion (level 8 was the bottom tier of Northern Premier/Isthmian/Southern leagues). The teams would then had to meet certain criteria and the top eligible team would be promoted as long as they were in the top 3 (or possibly top 5, I can't remember exactly). If the amateurs were able to merge leagues eventually or, at least, have a top division for north/Tayside/west/east then they could do something similar. They'll have to do something in the amateurs eventually as the numbers are shrinking every year. They're down almost 50% of clubs in the last ten years.

[Yalay]

17 minutes ago, Pollok mad said:

Amateur leagues in the West are way too segmented to have any hope of joining the pyramid any time soon. Caley teams only a couple weeks ago unanimously voted against a merger with the Central Scottish

I don’t have a strong opinion on whether the two leagues should merge, but one advantage of incorporating the amateurs into the pyramid is that it would allow the WoSFL to force remedies to these sorts of issues. The leagues could be denied promotion opportunities if they don’t maintain a sufficient standard.

Perhaps the compromise is a promotion without relegation option. Take all the amateur champions who meet the WoSFL standards and desire promotion and put them in a playoff. The winner gets into the league with no corresponding relegation. It keeps the door open while only committing the league to a very small rate of growth. I bet most years no champion would even desire promotion, and the rate of clubs joining would roughly match the rate of clubs withdrawing so there wouldn’t even be much growth. Agreements with the amateur leagues wouldn’t even be required, meaning the WoSFL could retain complete control.

[glensmad]

Any potential expansion of the pyramid would be the domain of the Scottish FA's Pyramid Working Group, and would not be exclusive to the WoSFL region. If the WoSFL was in some way linked to amateur leagues below it, the Scottish FA would need to approve it first, and amateur leagues in the other regions would potentially want a piece of the action too.

Don't hold your breath for that happening any time soon, as the Pyramid Working Group has not met since the start of this season, despite the promise of a full pyramid review when the B teams were re-admitted to the Lowland League for this season.

Edited January 10, 2023 by glensmad

[Burnieman]

59 minutes ago, stanley said:

They had a system in England

England, who abolished the distinction between professional and amateur football in 1974, it just became football.  Not like Scotland to be 48 years behind progress.

Let's just have football. Pay players if you want, don't pay players if you want.

Amateur leagues just become leagues and are organised in levels below the existing Pyramid structure with optional promotion. It might revive the game at those levels as amateur football is dying on its arse.

Unless that happens, I don't think the WoSFL, EoSFL or any other Pyramid league can shut the door to new applicants.

[stanley]

30 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

England, who abolished the distinction between professional and amateur football in 1974, it just became football.  Not like Scotland to be 48 years behind progress.

Let's just have football. Pay players if you want, don't pay players if you want.

Amateur leagues just become leagues and are organised in levels below the existing Pyramid structure with optional promotion. It might revive the game at those levels as amateur football is dying on its arse.

Unless that happens, I don't think the WoSFL, EoSFL or any other Pyramid league can shut the door to new applicants.

Yes, I agree. The system I was talking about in England was from a few years ago. They had a proper pyramid system in place but slightly different promotion rules to help ambitious clubs meaning that they didn't need to finish as champions in tier 9.

Scotland should certainly abolish the distinction and the amateur leagues should move in below the current senior leagues (and simply merge the west leagues). We're years behind England on most of this stuff (decades, in fact when it comes to non-league promotion) so it might take a while before that happens...

[Yalay]

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

Any potential expansion of the pyramid would be the domain of the Scottish FA's Pyramid Working Group, and would not be exclusive to the WoSFL region. If the WoSFL was in some way linked to amateur leagues below it, the Scottish FA would need to approve it first, and amateur leagues in the other regions would potentially want a piece of the action too.

Are you suggesting that the SFA would be perfectly fine with the WoSFL simply shutting the door, but would not sanction a playoff tournament to allow ambitious amateurs a way in?

Edited January 10, 2023 by Yalay

[glensmad]

24 minutes ago, Yalay said:

Are you suggesting that the SFA would be perfectly fine with the WoSFL simply shutting the door, but would not sanction a playoff tournament to allow ambitious amateurs a way in?

No, I'm just advising that any amendment to the pyramid would need the Scottish FA'S blessing.

[GNU_Linux]

For some context at 79 members the WOSL is one of the biggest league organisations in Scotland it terms of membership. Only one that might beat it is the LEAFA by virtue of them running Saturday & Sunday leagues in multiple time slots but that probably has clubs with multiple different teams.

Edited January 10, 2023 by GNU_Linux

[Spyro]

The problem with the amateurs is they are too volatile, see Colville Park and Tower Hearts.

Then there’s the pitch issue, have any amateurs except Annbank and Leven in Fife got a park that would pass? Most of them play out of Sports Centres so have the problem of getting reliable bookings.

There’s no chance you will get all the top teams into 1 league travelling all across Scotland for a promotion spot that most of them won’t actually want…

The only way is tidy up the Glasgow area leagues then make an application type promotion and relegation where the league clubs choose between any amateur applicants and the bottom team from Div 4 (or Div 3 in the east).

[Yalay]

On 18/01/2023 at 12:33, Spyro said:

The problem with the amateurs is they are too volatile, see Colville Park and Tower Hearts.

Then there’s the pitch issue, have any amateurs except Annbank and Leven in Fife got a park that would pass? Most of them play out of Sports Centres so have the problem of getting reliable bookings.

There’s no chance you will get all the top teams into 1 league travelling all across Scotland for a promotion spot that most of them won’t actually want…

Nobody is suggesting that amateurs should be forced up if they don't want to go. The promotion playoff would be available only to clubs who want to go up and meet the criteria for acceptance into the league, which isn't many. In most years, exactly zero amateur champions would enter the playoff.

Quote

 

The only way is tidy up the Glasgow area leagues then make an application type promotion and relegation where the league clubs choose between any amateur applicants and the bottom team from Div 4 (or Div 3 in the east).

 

This is basically the election system that the Football League used for many years. If it were instituted here it would turn out very similarly to how it went in England where existing teams were almost never voted out.

[Spyro]

4 hours ago, Yalay said:

This is basically the election system that the Football League used for many years. If it were instituted here it would turn out very similarly to how it went in England where existing teams were almost never voted out.

Unless there was a space available in the league system (which is likely as things evolve), then there would be 2 or more teams potentially voted in.

Or just a complete diddy who are taking up space, still playing out a sports centre or ground sharing on the endless promise of “finding home” and usually trying to associate themselves with youth teams they have no interest in… there are a couple of teams in the east and west who fit this.

 

Completely agree with the first part though, most big amateur teams would’ve moved up by now if they wanted to. The door has always been open to them to apply in the past and still is, even if the league is “full” I can’t see them knocking back a very solid, well developed club with a bulletproof plan that are willing to join and would bring something to the league. Division 3 are managing 36 games this season so it can be done

[Kennie]

4 hours ago, Spyro said:

Unless there was a space available in the league system (which is likely as things evolve), then there would be 2 or more teams potentially voted in.

Or just a complete diddy who are taking up space, still playing out a sports centre or ground sharing on the endless promise of “finding home” and usually trying to associate themselves with youth teams they have no interest in… there are a couple of teams in the east and west who fit this.

 

Completely agree with the first part though, most big amateur teams would’ve moved up by now if they wanted to. The door has always been open to them to apply in the past and still is, even if the league is “full” I can’t see them knocking back a very solid, well developed club with a bulletproof plan that are willing to join and would bring something to the league. Division 3 are managing 36 games this season so it can be done

Interesting that you think "Division 3 are managing 36 games". Come back in May and tell me how they're managing 3 games a week.

There's over 40 fixtures without a date at this present time and we're not out of January yet. 

The sooner that all Divisions are down to 16 teams the better.

[Burnieman]

The flaw in all of this is the amateur status. Are senior clubs going to want to be relegated into an amateur league? Highly unlikely.

Amateur status really needs to be abolished first before any of this happens.  Every player is just a player who can be paid a wage, or paid expenses only, or even pay to play.  The status of their contract shouldn't be the driver, every contract/registration should be identical.

Alongside this, existing amateur leagues needs to be formed into their own Pyramid before their best teams can look to be promoted into the WoSFL or EoSFL, and even then, probably on a voluntary basis and not forced.

I'm not sure any of that will happen anytime soon, although the WoS / EoS should never become a closed shop.

[Spyro]

39 minutes ago, Kennie said:

There's over 40 fixtures without a date at this present time and we're not out of January yet. 

The sooner that all Divisions are down to 16 teams the better.

How are they so far behind, 14 to 27 games played?! Bet your glad they all kept the Junior Cup

The East's big league is 4-5 games per team further on and started the same time... 

Only Hawick but their pitch is under water between October and March every year, then it floods if it rains through the summer too... and Thornton had a cup run. 

[Kennie]

2 minutes ago, Spyro said:

How are they so far behind, 14 to 27 games played?! Bet your glad they all kept the Junior Cup

The East's big league is 4-5 games per team further on and started the same time... 

Only Hawick but their pitch is under water between October and March every year, then it floods if it rains through the summer too... and Thornton had a cup run. 

Floodlights?

[Spyro]

23 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

The flaw in all of this is the amateur status. Are senior clubs going to want to be relegated into an amateur league? Highly unlikely.

Amateur status really needs to be abolished first before any of this happens.  Every player is just a player who can be paid a wage, or paid expenses only, or even pay to play.  The status of their contract shouldn't be the driver, every contract/registration should be identical.

Alongside this, existing amateur leagues needs to be formed into their own Pyramid before their best teams can look to be promoted into the WoSFL or EoSFL, and even then, probably on a voluntary basis and not forced.

I'm not sure any of that will happen anytime soon, although the WoS / EoS should never become a closed shop.

The problem is, a lot of clubs are not really football clubs but can string a good few seasons together. 

We would end up with a bunch of clubs playing WoS/EoS with no backbone and all frantically trying to book pitches every week? The amateur teams of old are nearly all gone and the ones that are left could have went Juniors years ago if the wanted to be in the bigger pond.

I get what you're saying but it'll just not work lol

[Spyro]

4 minutes ago, Kennie said:

Floodlights?

Suppose, about half of them.

Was always going to be tough this season. I'm guessing all the division 4 clubs passed ground criteria and are full members now? Are the ones groundsharing being allowed to continue? 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Spyro

[Kennie]

16 minutes ago, Spyro said:

How are they so far behind, 14 to 27 games played?! Bet your glad they all kept the Junior Cup

The East's big league is 4-5 games per team further on and started the same time... 

Only Hawick but their pitch is under water between October and March every year, then it floods if it rains through the summer too... and Thornton had a cup run. 

Only 6 of the 40 odd postponements are down to the Junior Cup.

2 of them were down to the unfortunate abandonment of Stoneywood v Bellshill,

So, the Junior Cup is not the problem you hope it is.

[Spyro]

1 hour ago, Kennie said:

So, the Junior Cup is not the problem you hope it is.

No hoping here, it was one of the reasons why similar sized teams with no floodlights have played MUCH more league games in the same time. Am I wrong in saying the clubs that played in the junior Cup have played less league games as those who didn't? It was just a simple observation, no need to get defensive 

[Burnieman]

2 hours ago, Spyro said:

The problem is, a lot of clubs are not really football clubs but can string a good few seasons together. 

We would end up with a bunch of clubs playing WoS/EoS with no backbone and all frantically trying to book pitches every week? The amateur teams of old are nearly all gone and the ones that are left could have went Juniors years ago if the wanted to be in the bigger pond.

I get what you're saying but it'll just not work lol

I'm not saying it would work, but before you even get there you really need to deal with the archaic amateur status to start with and get rid of it.

Only at that point can you then entertain the possibility that these leagues can promote into the Pyramid.

We really need a system where the lower reaches are subjected to less ground regulation than further up, a graded system the further up you go.  If the very bottom play on a roped off pitch or a 3g cage in front of 20 fans then so be it.