Afghanistan Crisis

[Ad Lib]

17 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I never said it was. 

I'm not saying you did.

But the point is a laissez-faire approach to international affairs isn't a neutral one in its effects. Holding the West to standards you wouldn't hold Russia or China to is a recipe for greater disorder and far more of the things you criticise the West for happening in other parts of the world. But without even some lip service to things like human rights.

[Detournement]

The idea that precapitalist conflicts are comparable to modern imperialism is fucking stupid. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

Dominic Raab on his holibyes while addressing national security and potential genocide.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 hour ago, TheJTS98 said:

I don't disagree with that.

I take issue with people hitting out with Student Union-style soundbites about the USA and their 'poodle' being somehow uniquely evil in the international sphere.

We're not by any measure unusual. Either historically or by the standards of today. Everyone would do it if they could.

Quite agree. My problem with UK Foreign Policy during my lifetime is that they can't impose their will beyond their borders, so tag along with the bigger boys who ruffle their hair and let them think they're relevant. I can't help thinking, also, that a little less holding Uncle Sam's coat unquestioningly might have led us to be a bit lower down the league table of terrorist targets.

[welshbairn]

Thousands of people trying to flee for their lives (possibly) and this c**t's laying on a special flight for his fucking pets.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-08-25/pen-farthing-given-go-ahead-to-leave-afghanistan-with-animals

[Salt n Vinegar]

57 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Thousands of people trying to flee for their lives (possibly) and this c**t's laying on a special flight for his fucking pets.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-08-25/pen-farthing-given-go-ahead-to-leave-afghanistan-with-animals

The guy is right up there with the eejit who wanted a meeting in Downing Street about her fekkin' alpaca. 

[Guest TheJTS98]

18 hours ago, Detournement said:

The idea that precapitalist conflicts are comparable to modern imperialism is fucking stupid. 

Are we playing Student Union bingo?

Through all societal structures and across all cultures throughout history the one constant is that groups steal from/imprison/enslave/manipulate/go to war with/invade each other when they feel it's to their benefit and they can get away with it.

It's actually funny watching you wriggle out of engaging with this historically and currently obvious point.

People roll their eyes in mock bemusement when people bring up the Mongols. But then we could bring up the Imperial Japanese. Or the Malays. Or the Ottoman Empire. Or the Vikings. Or the Moors. or Ancient Egypt. And despite our love of victimhood, even Scotland took punts at invading England when there was a window of opportunity.

I could go on. The point is that all over the world and in all eras and under all systems, the result is the same. Steal what you can, invade who you feel it's worth invading, manipulate whoever you can. And nobody ever steps back and says 'Know what, maybe we should ease off from our position of power here and create a more equitable world'.

I have no doubt the people of Ghana are being shafted. But are you of the impression that the Romans weren't absolutely rinsing their colonies thousands of years ago? Or that the Moors didn't turn up in Spain to take everything of value that they could and to tax the baws off the locals? What exactly do you think the Japanese came to (then) Malaya to get? Do you think they planned on sharing the spoils of Malaya's (or China's or Korea's) natural resources with the locals?

Do you think the local populations of Judea or Spain or Korea were saying to each other, 'I know these invaders have stolen all our stuff and economically (and physically) enslaved us, but at least they're not Western Capitalists! That would make our situation so much worse!'

It's a hell of a reading of history you've got.

Capitalism is pure shite. Of that there is no doubt. And the way countries interact with each other is based on the benefit of the few at the expense of the many.

But your desperation to make out it's some kind of Western Capitalist disease is simply very funny. It's like history never happened!

Edited August 26, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Detournement]

The justification that other people are/have done was it used by Nazi Germany to justify their treatment of Slavs and Jews. You are making the same argument using the same poisoned logic.

It's funny that you are accusing me of 'student union arguments' when your the one making paper thin historical arguments covering centuries and daft assertions about human nature and behaviour. 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

19 hours ago, Detournement said:

The idea that precapitalist conflicts are comparable to modern imperialism is fucking stupid. 

 

At this stage they should probably consider digital currency instead.

[Guest TheJTS98]

51 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The justification that other people are/have done was it used by Nazi Germany to justify their treatment of Slavs and Jews. You are making the same argument using the same poisoned logic.

It's funny that you are accusing me of 'student union arguments' when your the one making paper thin historical arguments covering centuries and daft assertions about human nature and behaviour. 

Except I'm not justifying anything.

I'm pointing out that it's completely unexceptional.

You want to be all annoyed about The West. But The West is just the same as everybody else.

You don't like engaging with that, so you like to pretend I'm making an argument that I'm not making. You haven't engaged with any of the non-Western, non-capitalist examples I've given you. And I can keep giving them if you want.

You're labouring under a complete lack of understanding of history, of international relations, and of human nature.

Student union stuff. Easy catchy lines and buzzwords. That's all you offer. You completely fail to acknowledge of engage with actual facts in their historical or current context and you present no convincing rationale for The West being bad guys any more than anyone else. Nothing at all.

I just hope whoever she is is suitably impressed. Good luck with your exams.

Edited August 26, 2021 by TheJTS98

[101]

18 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Thousands of people trying to flee for their lives (possibly) and this c**t's laying on a special flight for his fucking pets.

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-08-25/pen-farthing-given-go-ahead-to-leave-afghanistan-with-animals

I totally disagree with him running such a high profile media campaign asking members of the public to write to their MPs and politicians to put pressure on the Prime Minister, firstly because the PM should be no where near the decision to allow a private plane to fly into Kabul airport and secondly because it has taken the spot light away from the humanitarian crisis.

Some MPs are reporting receiving more emails about saving pets the humans, it's important to keep the spot light on the human element of the story as the last interview I saw he was flying 69 people home on a plane that had 270 seats so there was room for more refugees which appears to be playing second fiddle to him getting cats dogs and donkeys out the country. 

We are in the final few days of the evacuation before the Taliban roll on the airport we can't really have private planes disrupting the constant military evacuation especially if they are doing so with such a high rate of empty seats.

Also who is called "Pen"

[coprolite]

9 minutes ago, 101 said:

 

Also who is called "Pen"

Pen is. 

[Detournement]

28 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

 The West is just the same as everybody else.

You don't like engaging with that, so you like to pretend I'm making an argument that I'm not making. 

That is your argument and it's completely false. You can't say the oppressed nation is the same as the operator. The slave is the same as the master. Ghana is the same as USA. 

The entire basis of left wing thought is that a better world and life for everyone are possible if the social relations of production are made equitable. Given that you get you arse handed to you by Hibs fans on here every weekend I don't think you are up to taking on Marx, Lenin, Fanon, Debord etc.

[Guest TheJTS98]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

That is your argument and it's completely false. You can't say the oppressed nation is the same as the operator. The slave is the same as the master. Ghana is the same as USA. 

The entire basis of left wing thought is that a better world and life for everyone are possible if the social relations of production are made equitable. Given that you get you arse handed to you by Hibs fans on here every weekend I don't think you are up to taking on Marx, Lenin, Fanon, Debord etc.

This is like a parody account.

Big fan of Marx, as it happens.

You just keep trying to shift the discussion away from the demonstrable fact that your 'western capitalists are worse than others' argument is utter nonsense.

My argument is that if Ghana had the USA's needs, power, and opportunity, it would behave like the USA does. You like to ignore human history and deny this.

It's just weird.

[Stellaboz]

It feels to me like the Taliban are being allowed to take over, in the hope that the US, UK etc can make a point of starting another war there in a few years, in turn more crazy money going from the public purse into the arms dealers pockets.

[Detournement]

19 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

This is like a parody account.

Big fan of Marx, as it happens.

You just keep trying to shift the discussion away from the demonstrable fact that your 'western capitalists are worse than others' argument is utter nonsense.

My argument is that if Ghana had the USA's needs, power, and opportunity, it would behave like the USA does. You like to ignore human history and deny this.

It's just weird.

So your argument has nothing to do with material conditions. If X was Y then JTS is correct. That's a fun game.

 

 

[Guest TheJTS98]

10 minutes ago, Detournement said:

So your argument has nothing to do with material conditions. If X was Y then JTS is correct. That's a fun game.

 

 

Quite the opposite.

My point is that X is X.

You live in some fantasy land where Western Capitalists are in some way exceptionally evil when, as history and the world around us repeatedly shows, they're completely unexceptional. You just ignore all the examples presented to you. You haven't addressed a single one of them, which speaks volumes.

Marx has the problem right, but actually believing his timeline of history is in the same realm as being one of these Christians that makes semantic and desperate arguments about the meaning of the word 'soon' in the Bible with reference to the Second Coming. You can't prove a negative in this sense, so I'll just have to say that all the evidence humanity has ever presented convinces me that your 'West is bad' student politics is just ignorance wrapped up as value.

West is the same as everyone else. You've just formed a belief system and, likely, an identity, around denying that.

Edited August 26, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Detournement]

Capitalism is qualitatively different to older forms of social relations and arose because of a particular set of material circumstances in England and from there spread to the rest of the world. White supremacy and US hegemony are also specific phenomena that came from novel forms of social relations. I get this from Marx, Aime Cesaire and Ellen Meiskens Wood. 

Your argument of everyone being equivalent under certain hypothetical conditions is so ridiculous that it can't be explained by solely ignorance or stupidity. It suggests either a deep racism and/or being compensated for supporting the status quo. 

[Suspect Device]

I get the impression the Detournement and The JTS98 would be the two students arguing over nothing, drunk after sipping their 1/2 pint snakebites while the rest of the group of freshers are pairing up and getting their hole.

[Guest TheJTS98]

14 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Capitalism is qualitatively different to older forms of social relations and arose because of a particular set of material circumstances in England and from there spread to the rest of the world. White supremacy and US hegemony are also specific phenomena that came from novel forms of social relations. I get this from Marx, Aime Cesaire and Ellen Meiskens Wood. 

Your argument of everyone being equivalent under certain hypothetical conditions is so ridiculous that it can't be explained by solely ignorance or stupidity. It suggests either a deep racism and/or being compensated for supporting the status quo.