Seven years on

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Nationalism is, of course, about division.  You're surely not going to contend this?  The only area of debate is how much it's fueled by hatred and how much by ignorance.

Well we know UK nationalism is fuelled by hatred of Europeans, migrants, Middle Eastern folk, and Muslims. Seems like something any tolerant person would want no part of - which explains your hard-on for it.

[Baxter Parp]

4 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Nationalism is, of course, about division.  You're surely not going to contend this?  The only area of debate is how much it's fueled by hatred and how much by ignorance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

It baffles me that UK Nats think they can get away with the “nationalism is just bad” schtick in light of the current UK and, historically, the UK’s jingoism. The fact is that the world is made up of nation states and so nationalism is the dominant ideology globally: it’s how international relations are conducted and agreements made. Funny how it only seems to be EVIL AND DIVISIVE to UK-philes when they think it threatens their glorious, punching-above-its-weight, beacon-of-the-ages, special and exceptional nation-state. The “No Borders” mask really made a thud when it hit the floor with Brexit - only the stupider anti-independence UK Nats don’t seem to have heard it.

[Zern]

Voted Yes last time, looking forward to doing so again.

Brexit makes the case for independence more pressing, more attractive, as EU membership presents tangible benefits. Brexit has highlighted what those were and why it was a foolish endeavour to isolate and withdraw from the EU peace project.

The existence of Ireland renders arguments for remaining part of the UK moot as it demonstrates the reality that it can be done and done successfully. The pending poll for Irish re-unification is building and is guaranteed by the GFA and a period of every 7 years iirc.

I view it as inevitable.

Brexit will break up the UK.

[Pocketman]

10 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Nationalism is, of course, about division.  You're surely not going to contend this?  The only area of debate is how much it's fueled by hatred and how much by ignorance.

You routinely ignore any statement that contends that voting for independence is simply and utterly about self determination. The fact that an independent Scotland would welcome anyone and everyone who wants to live there is beyond your understanding and reasoning. Hate and ignorance is all you know hence the prism through which you view the entire debate. 

[Jacksgranda]

9 hours ago, Zern said:

Voted Yes last time, looking forward to doing so again.

Brexit makes the case for independence more pressing, more attractive, as EU membership presents tangible benefits. Brexit has highlighted what those were and why it was a foolish endeavour to isolate and withdraw from the EU peace project.

The existence of Ireland renders arguments for remaining part of the UK moot as it demonstrates the reality that it can be done and done successfully. The pending poll for Irish re-unification is building and is guaranteed by the GFA and a period of every 7 years iirc.

I view it as inevitable.

Brexit will break up the UK.

I must have missed that in the local news - what date is this "pending" poll?

[Clown Job]

17 hours ago, Antlion said:

Well we know UK nationalism is fuelled by hatred of Europeans, migrants, Middle Eastern folk, and Muslims. Seems like something any tolerant person would want no part of - which explains your hard-on for it.

Don’t forget Jocks, taffs and Paddies 

 

[Zern]

3 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

I must have missed that in the local news - what date is this "pending" poll?

I mentioned no local news or a date. Is it the word pending that is giving you trouble?

I say pending because this is no mere party election pledge or promise. This is something written into an international agreement that specifies the thresholds for such an event. Speculation over when it may occur is perhaps slightly less interesting than the guarantee that it will happen.

I find it interesting that it also includes a provision for what happens if such a poll were to be defeated. There is a set period of 7 years between such referendums. Seems reasonable.

[Jacksgranda]

It may be "pending" but it's certainly not "imminent". It could even be 7 years away.

[welshbairn]

18 minutes ago, Zern said:

I mentioned no local news or a date. Is it the word pending that is giving you trouble?

I say pending because this is no mere party election pledge or promise. This is something written into an international agreement that specifies the thresholds for such an event. Speculation over when it may occur is perhaps slightly less interesting than the guarantee that it will happen.

I find it interesting that it also includes a provision for what happens if such a poll were to be defeated. There is a set period of 7 years between such referendums. Seems reasonable.

There only has to be a border poll if there's a clear majority for it, which there isn't.

Quote

 It is explicitly stated in the GFA that the holding of a border poll is within the power of the NI Secretary: 

"If at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."

Essentially, it means that a border poll can be held if the NI Secretary feels it is likely that it would be passed. If one is held, there can’t be another for another seven years. 

https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-border-poll-5375996-Mar2021/

Edited October 10, 2021 by welshbairn

[DeeTillEhDeh]

You routinely ignore any statement that contends that voting for independence is simply and utterly about self determination. The fact that an independent Scotland would welcome anyone and everyone who wants to live there is beyond your understanding and reasoning. Hate and ignorance is all you know hence the prism through which you view the entire debate. 

He also fails to give examples when he accuses people here of being ethno-nationalists.

He knows it's bullshit of the worst kind.

There was a time, believe it or not, that you could get a reasoned argument from Kincy - now he's become a sad old troll.

[The_Kincardine]

16 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

You routinely ignore any statement that contends that voting for independence is simply and utterly about self determination. The fact that an independent Scotland would welcome anyone and everyone who wants to live there is beyond your understanding and reasoning. Hate and ignorance is all you know hence the prism through which you view the entire debate. 

I ignore them because it is a piece of ignorant crap.

Great Britain became the successor state to the erstwhile kingdoms and Scotland and England in 1707 and, since then, we Scots have been at the heart of all matters political, economic, social and industrial and have helped shaped what GB - and then The UK - became over 3 centuries both for good and ill.

I admire the UN's 'self determination' idea and in a post-colonial world it helped many nations find their voice.  To apply it to Scotland, though is to show either ignorance of what we contributed 'in Union' or, in many cases, just blind hatred.  Moreover, given Scots' influence on GB and then The UK - and given the transit of people north and south - the idea of a simple demarcation from the Solway to the Tweed is to create a false distinction.  We're all one people and have been for centuries so to partition the UK can only be prompted by hatred or ignorance. It certainly isn't based on history nor on the idiotic notion of Scottish exceptionalism.

A  more telling (and more recent) idea from the UN is the right of every nation - such as ours - to maintain the integrity of its borders and to eschew small-minded and xenophobic attempts to divide us.  This trumps any idea of empty-headed self-determination and gives the right to any nation to clamp  down of partitionist movements.

Anyone wanting border guards at Gretna is either ignorant of Scotland's history or hates The Basturt English.  

[Zern]

7 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

It may be "pending" but it's certainly not "imminent". It could even be 7 years away.

I didn't call it imminent either.

It is significant because of its inclusion in the Belfast Agreement, which ensures it is a permanent fixture of increasing relevance for future elections in Northern Ireland. It's an example of a referendum with a more concrete legal framework than Scotland's. The agreed upon rules for how these referendums can be implemented and the way in which Scotland's preference for having a vote is being denied is stark.

[Pocketman]

14 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

Anyone wanting border guards at Gretna is either ignorant of Scotland's history or hates The Basturt English.  

 

[Antlion]

34 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I ignore them because it is a piece of ignorant crap.

Great Britain became the successor state to the erstwhile kingdoms and Scotland and England in 1707 and, since then, we Scots have been at the heart of all matters political, economic, social and industrial and have helped shaped what GB - and then The UK - became over 3 centuries both for good and ill.

I admire the UN's 'self determination' idea and in a post-colonial world it helped many nations find their voice.  To apply it to Scotland, though is to show either ignorance of what we contributed 'in Union' or, in many cases, just blind hatred.  Moreover, given Scots' influence on GB and then The UK - and given the transit of people north and south - the idea of a simple demarcation from the Solway to the Tweed is to create a false distinction.  We're all one people and have been for centuries so to partition the UK can only be prompted by hatred or ignorance. It certainly isn't based on history nor on the idiotic notion of Scottish exceptionalism.

A  more telling (and more recent) idea from the UN is the right of every nation - such as ours - to maintain the integrity of its borders and to eschew small-minded and xenophobic attempts to divide us.  This trumps any idea of empty-headed self-determination and gives the right to any nation to clamp  down of partitionist movements.

Anyone wanting border guards at Gretna is either ignorant of Scotland's history or hates The Basturt English.  

The existent of Ireland is something it’s understandable you can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge. 

[Wee-Bey]

50 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Anyone wanting border guards at Gretna is either ignorant of Scotland's history or hates The Basturt English.  

[Billy Jean King]

I ignore them because it is a piece of ignorant crap.
Great Britain became the successor state to the erstwhile kingdoms and Scotland and England in 1707 and, since then, we Scots have been at the heart of all matters political, economic, social and industrial and have helped shaped what GB - and then The UK - became over 3 centuries both for good and ill.
I admire the UN's 'self determination' idea and in a post-colonial world it helped many nations find their voice.  To apply it to Scotland, though is to show either ignorance of what we contributed 'in Union' or, in many cases, just blind hatred.  Moreover, given Scots' influence on GB and then The UK - and given the transit of people north and south - the idea of a simple demarcation from the Solway to the Tweed is to create a false distinction.  We're all one people and have been for centuries so to partition the UK can only be prompted by hatred or ignorance. It certainly isn't based on history nor on the idiotic notion of Scottish exceptionalism.
A  more telling (and more recent) idea from the UN is the right of every nation - such as ours - to maintain the integrity of its borders and to eschew small-minded and xenophobic attempts to divide us.  This trumps any idea of empty-headed self-determination and gives the right to any nation to clamp  down of partitionist movements.
Anyone wanting border guards at Gretna is either ignorant of Scotland's history or hates The Basturt English.  

What a steaming pile of drunken, colonial shite ! Seriously do you read this nonsense before you hit send ? No nation should be allowed independence simply based on how long they have been colonised, seriously is that what you are reduced too, basically a time bar to independence. The rest of that waste of finger skin is simply a drunken rant.

I take it Scottish success in any field riles you to the extent that following a weekend of joy for virtually all Scots you are reduced to this slavering mess. Dearie me !

[The_Kincardine]

19 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

What a steaming pile of drunken, colonial shite ! how long they have been colonised, 
 

OK this is the 'ignorant' side of the equation.  Anyone who regards  Scotland - the arch colonisers of modern history - as the colonised is alien to our country's past.

26 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

I take it Scottish success in any field riles you to the extent that following a weekend of joy for virtually all Scots you are reduced to this slavering mess.

I've followed our national team through thick and thin - and for far longer than you have.  My pleasure at yesterday's win has been expressed on the match thread.

Shame that dimwits like you have to try and politicise a game.

[Antlion]

8 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

OK this is the 'ignorant' side of the equation.  Anyone who regards  Scotland - the arch colonisers of modern history - as the colonised is alien to our country's past.

I've followed our national team through thick and thin - and for far longer than you have.  My pleasure at yesterday's win has been expressed on the match thread.

Shame that dimwits like you have to try and politicise a game.

And yet you deride and ignore historically-colonised Ireland in your passion for partitioning countries (as long as it’s done by the British). 

[lichtgilphead]

3 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

A  more telling (and more recent) idea from the UN is the right of every nation - such as ours - to maintain the integrity of its borders and to eschew small-minded and xenophobic attempts to divide us. 

16 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I've followed our national team through thick and thin

3 hours ago "Our nation is the UK. We shall not be divided"

10 minutes ago "My nation is Scotland"

 

Drunk, incoherent, contradictory nonsense (as usual)

Edited October 10, 2021 by lichtgilphead
Baad grammer