Seven years on

[Scott Steiner]

The Kincmeister's assessment is more feasible to be honest.

Debt which is only paid off slowly once you're earning a certain amount seems less likely to put someone off Uni than the snatching away of substantial grants and fee payments by the Scottish government.

I'm sure Nationalists who disagree will provide a full, robust and devastating counter argument though, only after consulting with their cult leaders for instructions, naturally.

[Dink]

20 hours ago, Scott Steiner said:

The Kincmeister's assessment is more feasible to be honest.

Debt which is only paid off slowly once you're earning a certain amount seems less likely to put someone off Uni than the snatching away of substantial grants and fee payments by the Scottish government.

I'm sure Nationalists who disagree will provide a full, robust and devastating counter argument though, only after consulting with their cult leaders for instructions, naturally.

Well, the number of Scottish students in English universities has been falling since 2010-11, from a little over 12,000 to a little over 9,000. 2010 is also the year that the Browne report was published which recommended the removal of the cap on tuition fees in England (instead a cap of £9,000 was put in place, later increasing to £9,250). I don't think it's wild speculation to say that there's a high likelihood that the two things are related.

It may not be the devastating counter argument that you were looking for but it's better than any argument that you provided above.

Is this where I should add something about unionist trolls, group think, and cults? Or does that only work one way?

[Scott Steiner]

1 minute ago, Dink said:

Well, the number of Scottish students in English universities has been falling since 2010-11, from a little over 12,000 to a little over 9,000. 2010 is also the year that the Browne report was published which recommended the removal of the cap on tuition fees in England (instead a cap of £9,000 was put in place, later increasing to £9,250). I don't think it's wild speculation to say that there's a high likelihood that the two things are related.

It may not be the devastating counter argument that you were looking for but it's better than any argument that you provided above.

Is this where I should add something about unionist trolls, group think, and cults? Or does that only work one way?

Many thanks for the well thought out reply, Dink.

Am I not right in thinking the cap was not actually removed, despite what the report said?  I could be completely wrong here.

To answer your question, you may add something about Unionist trolls, group think and cults if you wish.  'Salt N Vinegar' previously went down a similar route and I responded in kind.

[NotThePars]

It’s obvious Scottish students would broadly rather study where the fees are much cheaper or mostly subsidised.

Even at a postgrad level I only paid about 2500 of my own cash as the govt covered the rest.

[Dink]

Many thanks for the well thought out reply, Dink.
Am I not right in thinking the cap was not actually removed, despite what the report said?  I could be completely wrong here.
To answer your question, you may add something about Unionist trolls, group think and cults if you wish.  'Salt N Vinegar' previously went down a similar route and I responded in kind.

Yeah, a cap of £9,000 which I'd assume is more than enough to alter student behaviour.

[Scott Steiner]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

It’s obvious Scottish students would broadly rather study where the fees are much cheaper or mostly subsidised.

Even at a postgrad level I only paid about 2500 of my own cash as the govt covered the rest.

Agree with you there, NTP.

[Scott Steiner]

1 minute ago, Dink said:

5 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

Many thanks for the well thought out reply, Dink.
Am I not right in thinking the cap was not actually removed, despite what the report said?  I could be completely wrong here.
To answer your question, you may add something about Unionist trolls, group think and cults if you wish.  'Salt N Vinegar' previously went down a similar route and I responded in kind.

Yeah, a cap of £9,000 which I'd assume is more than enough to alter student behaviour.

It could, but if that didn't change then why would the student behaviour change?

I still think the Kincmeister's take on the matter makes more sense.  Not trying to be difficult as I realise you're stating your case in good faith, but that's how I see it.

[Dink]

It could, but if that didn't change then why would the student behaviour change?
I still think the Kincmeister's take on the matter makes more sense.  Not trying to be difficult as I realise you're stating your case in good faith, but that's how I see it.

The fees did rise. The £9,000 cap was higher than before (£6,000 from memory). It's probably also a factor that there were significant protests in England around the fees at this time, which were widely reported on the national news. Even if the increased financial burden wasn't enough on its own to change student behaviour then the media narrative of unfair fees Vs free education would have further persuaded Scot Dom students to stay in Scotland.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

On 12/12/2021 at 23:06, The_Kincardine said:

KC in the early 80s was brilliant. 

you've got a point

But I prefer his funkier 70s stuff

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by topcat(The most tip top)

[Scott Steiner]

5 minutes ago, Dink said:

11 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

It could, but if that didn't change then why would the student behaviour change?
I still think the Kincmeister's take on the matter makes more sense.  Not trying to be difficult as I realise you're stating your case in good faith, but that's how I see it.

The fees did rise. The £9,000 cap was higher than before (£6,000 from memory). It's probably also a factor that there were significant protests in England around the fees at this time, which were widely reported on the national news. Even if the increased financial burden wasn't enough on its own to change student behaviour then the media narrative of unfair fees Vs free education would have further persuaded Scot Dom students to stay in Scotland.

Interesting, and I don't doubt what you're saying.  You make a very compelling argument, but so does the Kincmeister.  It seems obvious to me that the Scottish Executive leaving these students skint by refusing to pay their fees and snatching their grants would have a large role to play.

[Dink]

Interesting, and I don't doubt what you're saying.  You make a very compelling argument, but so does the Kincmeister.  It seems obvious to me that the Scottish Executive leaving these students skint by refusing to pay their fees and snatching their grants would have a large role to play.

Perhaps. I'm not so up on student support as I am on the fees and funding side of things. So, when did SG start refusing to pay fees for and snatching grants from Scottish students?

[Scott Steiner]

6 minutes ago, Dink said:

 

 

Perhaps. I'm not so up on student support as I am on the fees and funding side of things. So, when did SG start refusing to pay fees for and snatching grants from Scottish students?

 

I really don't know mate, but I've no reason to doubt the Kincmeister.  The snatch date would be relevant to our discussion though, especially if we can correlate it with an obvious trend.

What's your username in reference to btw?  If it's Dink the Clown of WWF fame then I'll be very excited.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Scott Steiner

[Dink]

I really don't know mate, but I've no reason to doubt the Kincmeister.
What's your username in reference to btw?  If it's Dink the Clown of WWF fame then I'll be very excited.

It's just a nickname from when I was younger, a slightly off contraction of my name - Duncan. Most of my mates from back then still call me Dink.

Back to the debate, however, and I think that if you're choosing your point of view based on the poster rather than the one who's provided some facts and context then your claim to be debating in good faith is on pretty shaky ground.

[Scott Steiner]

9 minutes ago, Dink said:

It's just a nickname from when I was younger, a slightly off contraction of my name - Duncan. Most of my mates from back then still call me Dink.

Back to the debate, however, and I think that if you're choosing your point of view based on the poster rather than the one who's provided some facts and context then your claim to be debating in good faith is on pretty shaky ground.

Initially I did think the Kincmeister was right, but the points you've made have put me back to neutral ground.  I'm always willing to be persuaded with the right arguments.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

One might reasonably expect the ramping up of housing costs to see more Students staying in the parental home and studying locally regardless of which side of the border they are on. That would explain some of the observed effect

Has anybody got any data on whether Aberdeen Uni is attracting less people from the central belt or less Yorkshire people are crossing the Pennines to study in Manchester?
 

[Scott Steiner]

15 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

One might reasonably expect the ramping up of housing costs to see more Students staying in the parental home and studying locally regardless of which side of the border they are on. That would explain some of the observed effect

Has anybody got any data on whether Aberdeen Uni is attracting less people from the central belt or less Yorkshire people are crossing the Pennines to study in Manchester?
 

Very good point.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Very good point.

I don’t just do crap jokes and memes you know





Admittedly it is mostly crap jokes and memes

[Dink]

26 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

One might reasonably expect the ramping up of housing costs to see more Students staying in the parental home and studying locally regardless of which side of the border they are on. That would explain some of the observed effect

Has anybody got any data on whether Aberdeen Uni is attracting less people from the central belt or less Yorkshire people are crossing the Pennines to study in Manchester?
 

The percentage of Scot Dom students at Uni of Aberdeen from City of Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire had reduced between 2008-09 and 2019-20 by a little over 2% for each.

 

Similarly at Glasgow the number of Scot Dom students from City of Glasgow had reduced by around 1%.

I really couldn't be bothered looking beyond those 2.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Dink

[Dink]

1 hour ago, Scott Steiner said:

Initially I did think the Kincmeister was right, but the points you've made have put me back to neutral ground.  I'm always willing to be persuaded with the right arguments.

Fair enough.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

5 minutes ago, Dink said:

The percentage of Scot Dom students at Uni of Aberdeen from City of Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire had reduced between 2008-09 and 2019-20 by a little over 2% for each.

 

Similarly at Glasgow the number of Scot Dom students from City of Glasgow had reduced by around 1%.

Back when I was at Glasgow I was one of the minority of students that came from over 30 miles away, which made me officially exotic.

I did however learn enough Social Science methodology at Glasgow to recognise when a hypothesis is weakened by further evidence

There may be demographic noise in there but if the effect I suggested is present it's clearly not that big.

It appears that living in a different city from Mum and Dad is at least as attractive to todays 18 year olds as it was to me