VAR in Scottish Football

[craigkillie]

In what way is determining the point at which the ball at the furthest forward any different to determining at which point the ball has left the attacker's foot? Both require a similar judgement call and are inexact.

The goal-line also doesn't move, unlike the final defender, so there is an obvious fixed point to compare to.

[The Master]

16 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

In what way is determining the point at which the ball at the furthest forward any different to determining at which point the ball has left the attacker's foot? Both require a similar judgement call and are inexact.
 

The presence of the attacker gives a point of reference. You can tell the last frame where the ball is still in contact with their foot.

No such point of reference exists when determining where the ball is relative to the goal line.

This is all moot anyway. The lines and such that are used for offside will not be used to determine if the ball has crossed the line. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by The Master

[DA Baracus]

Surely any line/angle used that shows the entire ball has crossed the line is fine? Any still that shows it is the one to decide it. If no stills show it, it hasn't crossed the line and isn't a goal. Not getting where there can be ambiguity.

[The Master]

2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Surely any line/angle used that shows the entire ball has crossed the line is fine? Any still that shows it is the one to decide it. If no stills show it, it hasn't crossed the line and isn't a goal. Not getting where there can be ambiguity.

And how do you find that still? 

[DA Baracus]

23 minutes ago, The Master said:

And how do you find that still? 

By going through them all.

[The Master]

6 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

By going through them all.

Right, but what leads you to choosing the still?

[DA Baracus]

2 minutes ago, The Master said:

Right, but what leads you to choosing the still?

Any of them that show the entire ball has crossed the line.

[parsforlife]

We already use VAR to decide if the ball is in front of a player, you can use the same judgement to decide if it’s in front of a goalline. 

[The Master]

20 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Any of them that show the entire ball has crossed the line.

And how do you know the entire ball has crossed the line in the frame you've selected?

Remember - we're talking about games without goal-line cameras.

17 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

We already use VAR to decide if the ball is in front of a player, you can use the same judgement to decide if it’s in front of a goalline. 

If you mean for offside, again you have the ability to extract the exact frame based on the reference point of the ball leaving the foot/head/etc. of the player who makes the pass. There's no such reference point for determining if the ball has crossed the line.

Offside has three things: the play of the ball, the position of the attacker, and the position of the defender. The first of those things is used to pick the frame, upon which the lines are drawn to determine the positions of the latter two relative to each other. 

If the argument is that the same can be applied to goals, the analogues are that the ball and the goal-line are the attacker and defender (respectively, or otherwise). Where is the third element, the one that determines the frame upon which the lines are drawn? 

[DA Baracus]

Just now, The Master said:

And how do you know the entire ball has crossed the line in the frame you've selected?

Remember - we're talking about games without goal-line cameras.

There will be a line. This line represents the goal line.

That's it. Is your question supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'?

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

They can ram their plea for 3 months of patience tbh.  Can't wait to get games I'm sitting at in the freezing cold to be ruined by some idiot twice over rather than once.

[The Master]

Just now, DA Baracus said:

There will be a line. This line represents the goal line.

That's it. Is your question supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'?

From a camera on the 18-yard line, and so not looking directly down the goal line, how can you determine if the whole of the ball has crossed the whole of that line?

Or do you think goals are only scored when the ball is on the ground?

[DA Baracus]

15 minutes ago, The Master said:

From a camera on the 18-yard line, and so not looking directly down the goal line, how can you determine if the whole of the ball has crossed the whole of that line?

Or do you think goals are only scored when the ball is on the ground?

If the entire ball is over the determined line, it's a goal.

Do you think I'm defending VAR?

[The Master]

20 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

If the entire ball is over the determined line, it's a goal.

Do you think I'm defending VAR?

Which frame have you chosen to determine if the entire ball is over the "determined line"? 

This isn't a "gotcha". I'm genuinely trying to understand how you think VAR chooses the correct frame when there is no point of reference for doing so. 

[DA Baracus]

15 minutes ago, The Master said:

Which frame have you chosen to determine if the entire ball is over the "determined line"? 

This isn't a "gotcha". I'm genuinely trying to understand how you think VAR chooses the correct frame when there is no point of reference for doing so. 

The one that shows the entire ball is over the determined line.

In what way is this difficult?

[The Master]

13 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

The one that shows the entire ball is over the determined line.

In what way is this difficult?

What has allowed you to determine that "the entire ball is over the determined line", and thus choose that frame?

[DA Baracus]

7 minutes ago, The Master said:

What has allowed you to determine that "the entire ball is over the determined line", and thus choose that frame?

Nothing has allowed me to do anything in that regard.

But the VAR folk who draw said line determine said line and so anything fully over said line is a goal.

Not a difficult concept.

[The Master]

9 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Nothing has allowed me to do anything in that regard.

But the VAR folk who draw said line determine said line and so anything fully over said line is a goal.

Not a difficult concept.

On what frame do they draw that line?

Edited October 16, 2022 by The Master

[DA Baracus]

15 minutes ago, The Master said:

On what frame do they draw that line?

They will have predetermined the line for the goal line.

That line.

[parsforlife]

2 hours ago, The Master said:

And how do you know the entire ball has crossed the line in the frame you've selected?

Remember - we're talking about games without goal-line cameras.

If you mean for offside, again you have the ability to extract the exact frame based on the reference point of the ball leaving the foot/head/etc. of the player who makes the pass. There's no such reference point for determining if the ball has crossed the line.

Offside has three things: the play of the ball, the position of the attacker, and the position of the defender. The first of those things is used to pick the frame, upon which the lines are drawn to determine the positions of the latter two relative to each other. 

If the argument is that the same can be applied to goals, the analogues are that the ball and the goal-line are the attacker and defender (respectively, or otherwise). Where is the third element, the one that determines the frame upon which the lines are drawn? 

Offsides don’t always have 3 points of reference.    Should the ball be ahead of the last defender all you are working out is the position of the attacker and position of the ball.  Should the 2nd last opposition player be ahead of the half way line you are calculating the position of the attacker, the position of the ball and the halfway line as your reference points.  Why can’t the goal line or if you really want the posts be used in the same way?

Yes it isn’t perfect and you are still reliant on the VAR selecting the right frame(which shouldn’t be much more difficult than for offsides) but that’s how VAR will be used for goal line decisions.

Theres plenty of reasons to not like VAR.  Goal line decisions are really not that big of a problem and if they are then they are very low on the list.