How did we get here?

[coprolite]

27 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Not if it means clubs who can afford it play a youth team in the professional set up as a development ground. 

the main purpose of it is so that Celtic don’t release an Andy Robertson or they don’t have to pay Motherwell £3m for Turnbull. 

If we all genuinely desire a competitive top flight (as I’ve said before, those running the game have no interest in this) then colt teams have no place. 

 

But the national team.... 

[VincentGuerin]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

Much as i enjoy the concept of Utd as a failure, i think that's a bit simplistic. 

The Bosman ruling is only one factor. 

EPL clubs now all have massive academies and the economic inequality is so big that they can pay a trainee more than a lot of SPL clubs can pay first teamers. 

Today's Duncan Ferguson's are more likely to be in an EPL youth system and get loaned out to Utd. 

As in wider society we're supposed to be grateful for the crumbs from the rich mans table. 

One of my neighbours' sons is a young player at Southampton. The boy's on nine grand a week and has been told he's got no future in the first team. Two years left on his deal (1.5 now, I suppose), so he'll just be loaned out and sit and watch the cash roll in.

There must be loads of kids like that at Premier League clubs who in the past would have been earning a smaller club a transfer fee.

Edited February 6, 2022 by VincentGuerin

[coprolite]

9 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

One of my neighbours' sons is a young player at Southampton. The boy's on nine grand a week and has been told he's got no future in the first team. Two years left on his deal (1.5 now, I suppose), so he'll just be loaned out and sit and watch the cash roll in.

There must be loads of kids like that at Premier League clubs who in the past would have been earning a smaller club a transfer fee.

I'd be astonished if Aberdeen or the Embra cheeks would stretch to that for a marquee signing. 

Must be a weird career trajectory to adjust to, 470k a year peak earnings at 19 and knowing you'll never get that again. 

[VincentGuerin]

11 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I'd be astonished if Aberdeen or the Embra cheeks would stretch to that for a marquee signing. 

Must be a weird career trajectory to adjust to, 470k a year peak earnings at 19 and knowing you'll never get that again. 

He was offered a move away from Southampton last month but knocked it back because he'd have been cutting his wage by about 50%. Wanted a pay-off from Southampton to go and they wouldn't do it.

Maybe they feel they can get more by getting loan fees for him as well as wage contributions. I don't really understand it all.

His parents are actually quite uneasy about it. He's not 20 yet and has had a lot handed to him. His dad said to me recently that he's quite worried about the impact of him becoming so rich at such a young age for having done basically nothing. It's a strange situation.

But in a different world he'd have been released a while back and would be at a smaller club earning less and maybe earning them a fee if he moved on later. As it is he'll limp out of Southampton in a year and a half having spent that time with no club particularly interested in his development and with no real career path. It's conceivable he'll be done with football at any meaningful level. But he'll make a fortune, so what do you do?

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

He was offered a move away from Southampton last month but knocked it back because he'd have been cutting his wage by about 50%. Wanted a pay-off from Southampton to go and they wouldn't do it.

Maybe they feel they can get more by getting loan fees for him as well as wage contributions. I don't really understand it all.

His parents are actually quite uneasy about it. He's not 20 yet and has had a lot handed to him. His dad said to me recently that he's quite worried about the impact of him becoming so rich at such a young age for having done basically nothing. It's a strange situation.

But in a different world he'd have been released a while back and would be at a smaller club earning less and maybe earning them a fee if he moved on later. As it is he'll limp out of Southampton in a year and a half having spent that time with no club particularly interested in his development and with no real career path. It's conceivable he'll be done with football at any meaningful level. But he'll make a fortune, so what do you do?

Hopefully he'll be well advised, so he has a lot of that fortune still left.

 

[Kyle Reese]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

Not if it means clubs who can afford it play a youth team in the professional set up as a development ground. 

the main purpose of it is so that Celtic don’t release an Andy Robertson or they don’t have to pay Motherwell £3m for Turnbull. 

If we all genuinely desire a competitive top flight (as I’ve said before, those running the game have no interest in this) then colt teams have no place. 

 

I don’t disagree with most of what you are saying here. However, unless the clubs who are refusing to vote for a return of the reserve or development leagues, then there’s no other choice.

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, Kyle Reese said:

I don’t disagree with most of what you are saying here. However, unless the clubs who are refusing to vote for a return of the reserve or development leagues, then there’s no other choice.

It’s not a binary choice between a reserve league and colt teams. 

There is no scenario where we are left with ‘no other choice’ but colt teams. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I'd be astonished if Aberdeen or the Embra cheeks would stretch to that for a marquee signing. 
Must be a weird career trajectory to adjust to, 470k a year peak earnings at 19 and knowing you'll never get that again. 

The Daniel Radcliffe effect

[Kyle Reese]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

It’s not a binary choice between a reserve league and colt teams. 

There is no scenario where we are left with ‘no other choice’ but colt teams. 

Glad you’ve got a sackful of other solutions. All I see is a situation where everyone outside the fucking OF has no route from youth to first team. Let’s hear it, mate.

[Dons_1988]

42 minutes ago, Kyle Reese said:

Glad you’ve got a sackful of other solutions. All I see is a situation where everyone outside the fucking OF has no route from youth to first team. Let’s hear it, mate.

No route from youth to first team? You sure? 

[MrWorldwideJr]

1 hour ago, Kyle Reese said:

Glad you’ve got a sackful of other solutions. All I see is a situation where everyone outside the fucking OF has no route from youth to first team. Let’s hear it, mate.

Unclear how your alternative pathway of youth team -> OF colt team -> Nobody's first team because they're still playing in an OF colt team helps matters.

I can understand Old Firm fans being in favour of colt teams, its hugely selfish and requires a load of mental gymnastics to justify it as anything other than yet another power grab, but at least its actually something that benefits their club. A fan of anyone outside the Old Firm believing that its a good idea which would be benefit anybody other than two clubs is wild.

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

Unclear how your alternative pathway of youth team -> OF colt team -> Nobody's first team because they're still playing in an OF colt team helps matters.

I can understand Old Firm fans being in favour of colt teams, its hugely selfish and requires a load of mental gymnastics to justify it as anything other than yet another power grab, but at least its actually something that benefits their club. A fan of anyone outside the Old Firm believing that its a good idea which would be benefit anybody other than two clubs is wild.

He wants hearts to do it, that’s why. We’re getting to that though. 

[Kyle Reese]

31 minutes ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

Unclear how your alternative pathway of youth team -> OF colt team -> Nobody's first team because they're still playing in an OF colt team helps matters.

I can understand Old Firm fans being in favour of colt teams, its hugely selfish and requires a load of mental gymnastics to justify it as anything other than yet another power grab, but at least its actually something that benefits their club. A fan of anyone outside the Old Firm believing that its a good idea which would be benefit anybody other than two clubs is wild.

Did you read the OP? Feels like I’ve got to repeat it all well in to the thread, when all you actually need to do is read the OP and subsequent posts.

[FairWeatherFan]

16 hours ago, Kyle Reese said:

Glad you’ve got a sackful of other solutions. All I see is a situation where everyone outside the fucking OF has no route from youth to first team. Let’s hear it, mate.

The OF don't really have a route. The B teams are only in the Lowland League for this season. There's no guarantee that it will continue. We're already seeing competing ideas on what might be in place. Reserve League/Lowland or Lower pyramid league B teams/Development teams that play friendlies.

I doubt there would be much interest from the full-time teams but the Lowland Development League (u20s with 2 over age players) have been picking up SPFL clubs as members. Alloa Athletic, East Fife, Edinburgh City, Kelty Hearts, Stirling Albion taking part this season.

[wastecoatwilly]

22 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Exactly.  Bosman was a big factor in the changes to the financial landscape of the game.

That's the landscape which determines success.

 

21 hours ago, coprolite said:

Much as i enjoy the concept of Utd as a failure, i think that's a bit simplistic. 

The Bosman ruling is only one factor. 

EPL clubs now all have massive academies and the economic inequality is so big that they can pay a trainee more than a lot of SPL clubs can pay first teamers. 

Today's Duncan Ferguson's are more likely to be in an EPL youth system and get loaned out to Utd. 

As in wider society we're supposed to be grateful for the crumbs from the rich mans table. 

Clubs know the environment they're working in from the last 30 years after the Bosman ruling.
No player is bigger than the club plus the club knows the position it finds itself in.
If we take Aberdeen or Motherwell as an example,Eoin Jess was Aberdeen's record transfer from the mid 90's until recently with the sale of McKenna and Cosgrove.
So in that 25 years it's a failure in the clubs part for not producing a player to eclipse the Jess record transfer.
The same for Motherwell between the time of the O'Donnell transfer to the Turnbull transfer.
It's not the case they can't do it, it's the case they're not doing it enough.

[coprolite]

14 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

 

Clubs know the environment they're working in from the last 30 years after the Bosman ruling.
No player is bigger than the club plus the club knows the position it finds itself in.
If we take Aberdeen or Motherwell as an example,Eoin Jess was Aberdeen's record transfer from the mid 90's until recently with the sale of McKenna and Cosgrove.
So in that 25 years it's a failure in the clubs part for not producing a player to eclipse the Jess record transfer.
The same for Motherwell between the time of the O'Donnell transfer to the Turnbull transfer.
It's not the case they can't do it, it's the case they're not doing it enough.

I'd say we lack the football knowledge. 

I completely agree that we haven't maximised value for our player assets. Some of that's probably down to poor judgement. More of it is down to poor players. Most of it is down to not being able to renew contracts because players know that the transfer fee increases the cost of hiring them and reduces their wage. 

Tying players down for longer is a high risk strategy. If we offered 5 year contracts as standard we'd have a lot of shite like Gleeson and Forrester still on the books taking a wedge. Better players would probably want shorter deals anyway as they'll usually see us a a shop window for a championship money gig. 

A Celtic fan lecturing smaller club fans on how to run club finances feels an awful lot like a Tory Hedge funder saying unemployed people could easily get work.

Even the yo yo clubs that have been good at monetising their players (Hibs, Utd) haven't managed it  consistently or benefitted massively. 

[VincentGuerin]

8 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I'd say we lack the football knowledge. 

I completely agree that we haven't maximised value for our player assets. Some of that's probably down to poor judgement. More of it is down to poor players. Most of it is down to not being able to renew contracts because players know that the transfer fee increases the cost of hiring them and reduces their wage. 

Tying players down for longer is a high risk strategy. If we offered 5 year contracts as standard we'd have a lot of shite like Gleeson and Forrester still on the books taking a wedge. Better players would probably want shorter deals anyway as they'll usually see us a a shop window for a championship money gig. 

A Celtic fan lecturing smaller club fans on how to run club finances feels an awful lot like a Tory Hedge funder saying unemployed people could easily get work.

Even the yo yo clubs that have been good at monetising their players (Hibs, Utd) haven't managed it  consistently or benefitted massively. 

The best any of the medium-sized clubs can hope to do is produce one player every few years who goes for a big fee, or buy one cheap from a smaller club and hope he develops. But the odds are massively stacked against it. Hearts and Souttar a good recent example. You're walking the renew/don't renew contract tightrope, and as soon as it becomes obvious it's a safe bet, the player knows he can move on in a year and make a fortune so you're fucked.

Laughable to blame the clubs. The transfer market compared to the 90s is completely different.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

 

Clubs know the environment they're working in from the last 30 years after the Bosman ruling.
No player is bigger than the club plus the club knows the position it finds itself in.
If we take Aberdeen or Motherwell as an example,Eoin Jess was Aberdeen's record transfer from the mid 90's until recently with the sale of McKenna and Cosgrove.
So in that 25 years it's a failure in the clubs part for not producing a player to eclipse the Jess record transfer.
The same for Motherwell between the time of the O'Donnell transfer to the Turnbull transfer.
It's not the case they can't do it, it's the case they're not doing it enough.

So plenty clubs are no longer able to sell players for the kind of money they did decades ago, but they're each individually to blame, rather than there being anything structural that acts against them?

Aye, ok.

[wastecoatwilly]

52 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

So plenty clubs are no longer able to sell players for the kind of money they did decades ago, but they're each individually to blame, rather than there being anything structural that acts against them?

Aye, ok.

A successful player trading model is needed in this environment where players have the control Monkey.
You deal with the hand you're given and you adapt to the landscape within your means. 

[tamba_trio]

I think it's also worth considering that, at some point, Scottish football jumped the shark with regards to its treatment of the Old Firm.  To use this week's Scottish Cup as an example, the priority of TV coverage for the tournament is now show the Rangers game, show the Celtic game (obviously regardless of opponents) and then throw a dart at the other ties and show whatever, who cares?

It wasn't always like this. If we go back 30 years media coverage was almost fair. Well, it wasn't fair, but it kinda pretended it was trying. Motherwell v Aberdeen was the tie of the Third Round back in 1991, ahead of Celtic (at Forfar) and Rangers (at home to Dunfermline). Hell, the day after Celtic beat Rangers 1-0 in the 1990 Scottish Cup the back page of the Daily Record had the headline DONS GET IT TOUGH because they'd drawn Aberdeen in the next round.

I think we jumped the shark in 2002, when we switched to the BBC TV deal. At that point, Saturday night highlights disappeared and the live game was simply "who are the Old Firm away to this week". That became the norm, and it's got more extreme throughout the years. It might have happened earlier though I think this was the nail in the coffin for the rest of the league.