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Russian invasion of Ukraine


Sonam

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9 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I must say I'm struggling to comprehend in this scenario does "peacekeeping" mean "shooting the Russians"?

 

Sending someone into stop the Russians blowing up the power stations would be desirable, however the UN could see if China wanted to do that?

Likewise with a humanitarian no fly zone I still think could be looked at, the Russians respected them in Syria, perhaps it wouldn't even need enforcement until after the event. Much like all the other war crimes Putin and his troops are committing.

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6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

It's been established you can just say any old shit you like about Corbyn so don't think anyone should be surprised tbh. 

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12 hours ago, Thorongil said:

Question: was Ukraine mistreating Russians in Eastern Ukraine prior to invasion? 

It's difficult to give a definite answer to a vague question. 

If you count shooting and bombing mistreatment, then yes, probably. 

There has been a wee bit of bother there recently. 

It's not clear that there has been officially sanctioned mistreatment (other than legitimate war fighting) on account of Russian nationality. 

There have been plenty of reports of pro government militia doing bad shit. 

There have been plenty of reports of the government doing bad shit but they usually come from Russia and are hotly debated. 

Ukraine (presuming you mean the state) has also been fighting Ukrainians in the Donbass. It is not only Russians that would prefer Ukraine to be more closely aligned with Russia than with the West. 

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11 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 

It's not clear that there has been officially sanctioned mistreatment (other than legitimate war fighting) on account of Russian nationality. 

Given that no one was ever convicted in connection to the killings of 44 anti Maidan activists at the Odessa Trade Union halls we can say it was officially sanctioned.  

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7 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Given that no one was ever convicted in connection to the killings of 44 anti Maidan activists at the Odessa Trade Union halls we can say it was officially sanctioned.  

It's a possibility. 

Also possible that they just didn't give enough of a shit to investigate or prosecute. 

Were they Russian? 

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18 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It's a possibility. 

Also possible that they just didn't give enough of a shit to investigate or prosecute. 

Were they Russian? 

Most of them were ethnic Russian leftists.

If a nation doesn't give enough of a shit to investigate or prosecute the deaths of 44 people  I would say it's a failed state. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Most of them were ethnic Russian leftists.

If a nation doesn't give enough of a shit to investigate or prosecute the deaths of 44 people  I would say it's a failed state. 

 

Is an ethnic Russian a Russian? 

Can the government of a failed state be held accountable for things it can't control whether it wants to or not? 

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1 hour ago, coprolite said:

It's a possibility. 

Also possible that they just didn't give enough of a shit to investigate or prosecute. 

Were they Russian? 

300 of them attacked a pro Ukraine nationalist march with baseball bats and air guns. The nationalists fought back and chased them to the trade union hall. There was a fire, perhaps deliberate, perhaps not.

P.S. Pretty balanced and detailed report here..

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2014_Odessa_clashes

Edited by welshbairn
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13 hours ago, Thorongil said:

Question: was Ukraine mistreating Russians in Eastern Ukraine prior to invasion? 

It's difficult to determine exactly what was going on militarily, but there was an escalation in shelling & fighting generally ftom both sides which led to the DPR/LPR asking for Russia's assistance prior to their official recognition and the eventual invasion.

Going back to 2014 though, it was the coup government's nationalistic policies which kicked off the separatists, in particular restrictions on the use of the Russian language in education and official communications. They also objected to what might politely be described as a new, alternative recollection of events in 1940s Europe.

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Some hopeful signs of rational compromise maybe. From the Guardian.

Quote

Kremlin’s spokesperson Dmitry Peskov on Wednesday said that Ukraine becoming a neutral state with a status comparable to Austria and Sweden is being discussed at talks with Kyiv and would be a “compromise”.

“This is an option that is being discussed now and that can be considered as a compromise,” Kremlin spokesman Peskov told journalists, raising hopes of an end to the biggest war in Europe since World War Two.

Russia’s chief negotiator in the talks with Ukraine Vladimir Medinsky said that the Austrian and Swedish models would mean Ukraine will be able to keep its army but won’t be allowed to host foreign bases or troops.

Earlier in the day, Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov told the Russian RBC news site that some parts of a possible peace deal with Ukraine were close to being agreed after Kyiv reportedly agreed to discuss neutrality

“Neutral status is now being seriously discussed along, of course, with security guarantees,” Lavrov said.

Yesterday Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy acknowledged that Ukraine will not become a Nato member, which will be seen as a significant concession towards Russia.

 

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31 minutes ago, Zetterlund said:

It's difficult to determine exactly what was going on militarily, but there was an escalation in shelling & fighting generally ftom both sides which led to the DPR/LPR asking for Russia's assistance prior to their official recognition and the eventual invasion.

Going back to 2014 though, it was the coup government's nationalistic policies which kicked off the separatists, in particular restrictions on the use of the Russian language in education and official communications. They also objected to what might politely be described as a new, alternative recollection of events in 1940s Europe.

Interesting. So it’s now just poor timid innocent Ukraine and mad Putin invading them without any provocation. I did smell a bit of a rat with the entirely un-nuanced media coverage of events.

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Tony Blair was talking about recognition of Crimea and the East as no longer part of Ukraine so that seems to be a given now.

Unless Russia are offered sanctions relief they will probably press onto Odessa and Dnipro. Blair seems to lightly hint that there is room to negotiate on this by mentioning the immediate consequences of sanctions but not talking at all about permanent consequences. 

It's worth bearing in mind that he is probably as close to Saudi Arabia and Israel as he is to the USA these days. There is some ominous stuff in there about a defined western response to the African population explosion and the division of the Middle East in friends and enemies. Funnily he mentions that communist China is overtaking the West because it's less bureaucratic. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/tony-blair-west-has-fortnight-to-help-end-war-in-ukraine

The full thing 

https://institute.global/tony-blair/immediate-challenge-ukraine-maximum-pressure-combined-structured-negotiation

Edited by Detournement
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