Can we ever imagine a Scotland without the Old Firm?

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, AB1872 said:

Kinda missing the point. Progres and LRI did something your clubs couldn’t. 
 

It’s absolutely undeniable that the diddies are poorer now than ever before. That’s not our fault 

Diddies would rather play in front of half empty stadiums than sell tickets to away fans

Diddies have allowed Doncaster to remain in position despite his many failings 

We don’t even have VAR ffs!

No country anywhere has as many Senior clubs. Reduce that amount and spread the prize money more evenly

Regionalise the lower leagues

Just because somethings always been that way doesn’t mean we can’t change

The problem is we have 30 odd clubs who are happy just surviving on the scraps they get from the OF and the more ambitious Diddies don’t want to get on the wrong side of Peter

Nothing is going to change. Rangers and Celtic will get stronger and the Diddies will continue getting weaker 

Every time I read your posts I’m convinced you haven’t read any of this thread and are just copying &pasting stuff from follow follow that you like. 

[SuperSaints1877]

20 minutes ago, AB1872 said:

There are so many embarrassing examples of diddies being humiliated in European competition that it’s difficult to keep up

Killie , Hearts, Sheep, St Johnstone, Hibs. All failed to get to a group stage in recent years

None of those clubs have ever been liquidated and forced to reapply to the Scottish League as a new club. Now that’s embarrassing.

[ol1vercloff]

I think the Old Firm are like insurance.  We'd love to not have to bother with it, but without it, we could suffer financially.

Maybe we could keep the old firm and the money they bring, but remove their supporters?  They really are knuckle dragging savages, and proud of it.  I thought the characters in Rab C Nesbitt were just fictional.  Unfortunately most of them live in West Lothian, which doesn't say much for the area 

Here's a bit of a tangent question - can you feel a real connection to a club that is 40-50 miles away from where you were born, raised and live?  A connection to a club because they are used to success doesn't count.

[Jacksgranda]

24 minutes ago, AB1872 said:

 

No country anywhere has as many Senior clubs. Reduce that amount and spread the prize money more evenly

 

Denmark has 1,647

[SuperSaints1877]

1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

Denmark has 1,647

Northern Ireland has 1,690

[Ranaldo Bairn]

There are not enough clubs. Every town should have one like on the continent. 

[Jacksgranda]

The RoI has 215

[ahemps]

I heard a stat that is interesting in the number of teams. I can't remember exactly if it was senior or professional teams but I remembered the ratio:

Germany there is a senior/professional team for every 1.6m people

Italy - 1.5

Spain -1.4

England - 800k

Scotland -100k

So if Scottish football fans are stretched enough by most people following the OF and not their local team it doesn't help that there is an abundance of local teams to follow.

[Jacksgranda]

6 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I heard a stat that is interesting in the number of teams. I can't remember exactly if it was senior or professional teams but I remembered the ratio:

Germany there is a senior/professional team for every 1.6m people

Italy - 1.5

Spain -1.4

England - 800k

Scotland -100k

So if Scottish football fans are stretched enough by most people following the OF and not their local team it doesn't help that there is an abundance of local teams to follow.

There are 26,000 football teams in Germany.

[Dons_1988]

The success of these old firm clubs whilst having to deal with so many clubs dragging them down is truly remarkable. 

World football doesn’t show them enough respect. 

[ahemps]

1 hour ago, VincentGuerin said:

While Celtic's period of dominance was utterly boring, and I doubt many of us believe even their fans protestations that they don't agree, it's worth remembering that Scotland is not alone here. It's just a question of scale. They have an Old Firm, it's just their big foreign-owned Champions League regulars.

England has essentially gone the same way. In the 80s there were thirteen different clubs in England who won major trophies. This included Wimbledon, Luton, Oxford, Coventry, Norwich, Wolves, Forest. The 90s saw 12 different winners, including the likes of Villa, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Leicester. By the 2000s it's down to 9 winners, but you've still got Spurs, Portsmouth, Blackburn etc getting their hands on trophies.

In the last decade only four trophies in English football have been won by clubs outwith what we could call England's Old Firm. Leicester have won two, Wigan, and Swansea.

That's four trophies out of the last thirty not going to the Old Firm. They're fucked too. People laugh at Spurs, for example, for not winning anything. But they're up against a closed shop. Trophies now are basically only won by a tiny group of clubs and that's just the way it's going. In England we can now add Newcastle to the Old Firm from next season.

In Scotland 9 of the last 30 trophies have been won by clubs outwith the Old Firm, so you could argue that in a way a Hearts, Aberdeen, St Mirren, or Ross County fan is better off than an Everton or Aston Villa fan.

We're all in the same boat in that our teams won't win the league, but we've got about a better chance of maybe winning a cup.

This is becoming a trend everywhere. Bayern had only ever won something like 3 in a row, they are currently going for 10 with no sign of it ending. 

France used to have arguably the most competitive league. Between the spells of Marseille and Lyon early 90's winning about 5 in a row, 8 teams won the league in a 10yr period. 

Periods of dominance aren't a bad thing and if they are on a level playing field then they are to be admired but when it is basically that nobody else has a chance then what is the point? I don't for 1 minute believe that OF fans leave the games most weeks after pumping a team with a 15th of their budget feeling a sense of satisfaction. Ryan Christie said he is finding the championship more exciting as he feels every game is a challenge and that when playing for Celtic it felt like it was just a matter of time before they scored and won.

You wouldn't watch a boxing match where it was a middleweight just beating up a flyweight. Nobody would watch or accept that but that is what football is becoming.

[VincentGuerin]

6 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Ryan Christie said he is finding the championship more exciting as he feels every game is a challenge and that when playing for Celtic it felt like it was just a matter of time before they scored and won.

I can understand why Scottish players stay at the Old Firm for a long time. Good money, you'll win medals, don't need to move house, likely get to play for Scotland.

But the professional challenge elsewhere must just be on a different planet.

It was quite weird watching Celtic celebrate their titles, especially when Rangers were away. This almost performative delight as if they had to prove to people that they really were happy and it really did matter. It must have been a bit weird for them. But even with their pals back, most weeks must be dull.

It's actually funny when you hear the Scottish media praising Rangers or Celtic for a narrow away win. 'They just get the job done, that's the Old Firm etc etc'. I mean, they've got a team worth probably 10-15 times that of their opponent. Of course they 'get the job done' FFS.

[AB1872]

56 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Most of the diddies have beaten Celtic and Rangers at some point in the last few years, too.

What happens to the clubs that you unsenior?

What scraps are these then?

 

They find their own level in a regionalised league where you don’t have Annan v Elgin City!

There are many ambitious Lowland / Highland league clubs who would welcome this. 
 

If you are happy with the status quo then that’s fair enough. 
 

You do realise I am talking about my club taking less money from the pot for the greater good? Or have missed that point? 

[ahemps]

20 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

There are 26,000 football teams in Germany.

Professional teams?

I didn't get the source but I took it that it meant by top league teams. So after 3 Liga they didn't count. Take the 56 league teams divided by their population.

In Scotland it would be 42/5m roughly is 120k.

 

[AmericanFan]

5 minutes ago, ahemps said:

This is becoming a trend everywhere. Bayern had only ever won something like 3 in a row, they are currently going for 10 with no sign of it ending. 

France used to have arguably the most competitive league. Between the spells of Marseille and Lyon early 90's winning about 5 in a row, 8 teams won the league in a 10yr period. 

Periods of dominance aren't a bad thing and if they are on a level playing field then they are to be admired but when it is basically that nobody else has a chance then what is the point? I don't for 1 minute believe that OF fans leave the games most weeks after pumping a team with a 15th of their budget feeling a sense of satisfaction. Ryan Christie said he is finding the championship more exciting as he feels every game is a challenge and that when playing for Celtic it felt like it was just a matter of time before they scored and won.

You wouldn't watch a boxing match where it was a middleweight just beating up a flyweight. Nobody would watch or accept that but that is what football is becoming.

 

I guess what I call a "salary cap" could be introduced to help things, but I'm guessing -- like baseball here -- that would never get approved?

Even if you introduced an annual "wage bill cap" of say £25 million, the smaller clubs still won't come close to that.

[Clown Job]

13 hours ago, Jammyp said:

It would help if the media didn't act like there is only two teams. Even TV time and exposure.

Being part of a UK market doesn’t help either 

Scottish football is the sideshow to the EPL even within Scotland 

I don’t disagree about your point, but even without Celtic and Rangers in the league, they still wouldn’t give a f**k about our game.

[VincentGuerin]

3 minutes ago, AmericanFan said:

 

I guess what I call a "salary cap" could be introduced to help things, but I'm guessing -- like baseball here -- that would never get approved?

Even if you introduced an annual "wage bill cap" of say £25 million, the smaller clubs still won't come close to that.

Doesn't work in an international market. American sports can do that, but you can't really make it work in European football in a way that will meaningfully help competition.

[Jacksgranda]

5 minutes ago, AB1872 said:

They find their own level in a regionalised league where you don’t have Annan v Elgin City!

There are many ambitious Lowland / Highland league clubs who would welcome this. 
 

If you are happy with the status quo then that’s fair enough. 
 

You do realise I am talking about my club taking less money from the pot for the greater good? Or have missed that point? 

How much less? And when did you mention that "point"?

[AmericanFan]

1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said:

Doesn't work in an international market. American sports can do that, but you can't really make it work in European football in a way that will meaningfully help competition.

You'll have to explain why not?

The NBA is an international market with players from all over -- if that's what you're meaning by international?

[AB1872]

3 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

Being part of a UK market doesn’t help either 

Scottish football is the sideshow to the EPL even within Scotland 

I don’t disagree about your point, but even without Celtic and Rangers in the league, they still wouldn’t give a f**k about our game.

Without Rangers and Celtic there is no TV deal. The Tv companies even dictate our league structure as they insist on 4 OF games