The Big Queen's Park FC Thread

[ExiledLichtie]

I wonder if there was a lot of arrogance about the Scottish league generally.  You see it a lot with managers from overseas, particularly with the old firm.  "Ah, the Scottish league?  Its shite innit, full of part timers and cloggers".

Most OF managers underestimate the league in their first season, and even if you go back to Raith and Claude Anelka, you see people assuming that football in Scotland is so shite that a bunch of kids and reserves from a big league will walk it.  I wonder if something similar is happening here?

[Spider Rico]

19 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

I wonder if there was a lot of arrogance about the Scottish league generally.  You see it a lot with managers from overseas, particularly with the old firm.  "Ah, the Scottish league?  Its shite innit, full of part timers and cloggers".

Most OF managers underestimate the league in their first season, and even if you go back to Raith and Claude Anelka, you see people assuming that football in Scotland is so shite that a bunch of kids and reserves from a big league will walk it.  I wonder if something similar is happening here?

It’s possible that is the case with Veldman but Beuker (the Director of Football) has no excuse as he has been here long enough now and also had a spell as caretaker manager (where we barely won a game.)

A few times I’ve seen reference being made by either or both of them to the “direct” style of opponents. Taking yesterday as an example, I wouldn’t describe the way Dunfermline played  as “direct”, certainly not in any negative way. What they did was expose the acres of space we left behind our defensive line with good through balls and well timed runs. And they knew it would be easy enough to nullify our attacks by getting bodies defending their box.

[an86]

The problem I have is the one size fits all “this is the way we play football.” Also “we’ve done this before, we know what we’re doing.” I’ve heard variations of that off the park as well. Nobody at Queen’s Park, on or off the park, has experience of anything remotely like the situation we’re in. 
 

You can’t apply the rules of AZ, Hibs or Motherwell and think “well, it worked there, so it’ll work here.” You have to factor in your environment or you’re going to fail. That goes for pretty much any line of work in any sector. You can still put your stamp on things over a period of time, but you have to be aware of the obstacles. You can’t just attempt to run through them, because you’ll inevitably bounce off them and end up on your arse. 

[1320Lichtie]

1 hour ago, EaglesandSpiders said:

Here's an example of that arrogance:

That seems like an incredibly petty reaction to what was, especially on social media considering the kind of things people say on that, a very polite post. 
 

[Spidersmad]

I'm fair looking forward to the Spiders Talk podcast this week. No doubt there will be lots of no-holds-barred, straight-from-the shoulder comments from the guys.

[EaglesandSpiders]

3 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

That seems like an incredibly petty reaction to what was, especially on social media considering the kind of things people say on that, a very polite post. 
 

That, my friend, is the trademark reaction of a very very insecure man. 

[Spider1975]

Listened again to Veldman's post match interview (again).  

He mentions (complains) about the defence making [unnecessarily] first contact and their aggressiveness in that contact leading to the free-kick and subsequent goal and talks about how they need to work on the 'way we want to defend'. My view of that incident was restricted somewhat, but on any other day it could easily have been another red.  He then goes on to talk about giving young, talented players their chance.  

Despite the accuracy of the decisions, he is implementing this defensive style and subsequently we have had both starting CB's sent off once each already this season (of which one was attributable to the high line and losing possession during an attacking phase of play) and we're not even at the end of September.  Despite this, he seems unwilling to trust Reid or anyone else to fill the gap.  

I have a horrible feeling that given the style of play, finishing games with 10 men might end up being more frequent that we'd like.

[Hampden Diehard]

Six games in, three of them victories and the manager's position is being questioned. FFS.

 

[Hampden Diehard]

On 17/09/2023 at 14:01, 1320Lichtie said:

That seems like an incredibly petty reaction to what was, especially on social media considering the kind of things people say on that, a very polite post. 
 

"a comeback to be remembered for decades"

No wonder he blocked him.

[Spider1975]

13 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Six games in, three of them victories and the manager's position is being questioned. FFS.

Don't think anyone is questioning his position, more some (just some) of the decisions.  As you state, a long way to go.

[Hampden Diehard]

On 17/09/2023 at 12:56, ExiledLichtie said:

I wonder if there was a lot of arrogance about the Scottish league generally.  You see it a lot with managers from overseas, particularly with the old firm.  "Ah, the Scottish league?  Its shite innit, full of part timers and cloggers".

Most OF managers underestimate the league in their first season, and even if you go back to Raith and Claude Anelka, you see people assuming that football in Scotland is so shite that a bunch of kids and reserves from a big league will walk it.  I wonder if something similar is happening here?

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The Scottish League is shite as European results would show you (although Queen's are unbeaten in Europe, of course!).

Veldman has been careful to say that what he's trying to do is long term. He'll be under no pressure to gain promotion this year, and most of our fans accept that. If we just wanted to go up without the promotion of younger players, as we're trying to do, we would have signed the usual ex Premier jobbers like Lafferty and Broadfoot.

[ExiledLichtie]

15 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The Scottish League is shite as European results would show you (although Queen's are unbeaten in Europe, of course!).

Its not that difficult a point to understand, I'm saying that a manager from overseas might have underestimated the league.

Other examples include Gerrard signing a bunch of random jobbers from English reserve teams in his first season and then immediately getting rid of them, Paul le Guen assuming he could do the same, Claude Anelka at Raith signing French amateurs, there are plenty of examples.

The question was, have Queen's Park fallen into a similar trap?  

[Velvet Donkey]

19 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Its not that difficult a point to understand, I'm saying that a manager from overseas might have underestimated the league.

Other examples include Gerrard signing a bunch of random jobbers from English reserve teams in his first season and then immediately getting rid of them, Paul le Guen assuming he could do the same, Claude Anelka at Raith signing French amateurs, there are plenty of examples.

The question was, have Queen's Park fallen into a similar trap?  

No, I don't think so. The quality of player for their stage of development is very good, and they already play slick football. I think the concern is more about whether the approach is too extreme to make it work. The reliance on a smallish squad with not much experience, and a very uncompromising game plan will result in rapid improvement, but we might not win many games until about February (if we don't pick up any injuries). So indirectly you could say it's underestimating of the league, but really is it more a lack of balance?

[CathcartSkins]

On 17/09/2023 at 12:56, ExiledLichtie said:

I wonder if there was a lot of arrogance about the Scottish league generally.  You see it a lot with managers from overseas, particularly with the old firm.  "Ah, the Scottish league?  Its shite innit, full of part timers and cloggers".

Most OF managers underestimate the league in their first season, and even if you go back to Raith and Claude Anelka, you see people assuming that football in Scotland is so shite that a bunch of kids and reserves from a big league will walk it.  I wonder if something similar is happening here?

Absolutely not. The coaching staff know the players they have at present are no where near the finished article and therefore will take time to develop. I firmly believe that come the third and fourth round of fixtures we will be finishing stronger than in previous seasons. 

[Zanetti]

1 hour ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Its not that difficult a point to understand, I'm saying that a manager from overseas might have underestimated the league.

Other examples include Gerrard signing a bunch of random jobbers from English reserve teams in his first season and then immediately getting rid of them, Paul le Guen assuming he could do the same, Claude Anelka at Raith signing French amateurs, there are plenty of examples.

The question was, have Queen's Park fallen into a similar trap?  

The other replies have covered this fairly well, but I think another important difference between what we're doing and your examples is that those teams were expected to win trophies - that's not the reality of our situation. This is a bit of a transitional year for the club.

[Spider1975]

2 hours ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Its not that difficult a point to understand, I'm saying that a manager from overseas might have underestimated the league.

Other examples include Gerrard signing a bunch of random jobbers from English reserve teams in his first season and then immediately getting rid of them, Paul le Guen assuming he could do the same, Claude Anelka at Raith signing French amateurs, there are plenty of examples.

The question was, have Queen's Park fallen into a similar trap?  

Totally get the point but as the others have stated there's a bit of nuance to go with this.  

Of the current 'starters', Callan McKenna's ex U-17, Ben McPherson is on loan having played only for Celtic B/U-18's, Will Tizzard's previous experience was Chippenham (??); of the midfield three, Jack Spong has 5 appearances for Crawley (EFL2) and Jack Turner's last loan was Braintree (no idea); Healy has only had a year with us post Junior football and Hepburn again Celtic youth and Bayern II.  Obviously Paton has come from L2 but has had to step up a level.  So not only is half the team new, but the competitiveness of the Championship may just have come as a bit of a shock.

With Beuker having been here for a while I doubt the club has underestimated the league but there may be an argument to say that it's taking/will take some time to adjust to a higher standard of opposition.  IMHO, it's incumbent, not just on the manager, but on the more senior players to maybe do a bit more in assisting with this 'in-game'.  If he was likely to be a regular starter, I'd be entrusting the Captaincy to Louis Longridge for this very reason, he's not only been very consistent but also very vocal in the games I've seen so far.  

[Bring Your Own Socks]

21 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Six games in, three of them victories and the manager's position is being questioned. FFS.

 

Can’t find a single comment from a QP fan questioning his position HD. All I see is people who care asking legit questions about a person employed to lead our favourite football team, a person we know little of. We find ourselves in a position where the most of our first team squad are untested and unproven at this level, the new manager is untested and unproven at this level, and the DoF himself was tested in practise, not theory, and was found to be wanting over a short term. Not to mention the gulf in football philosophies between Scotland and the Netherlands

If the Soon-To-Be turns out to be the Never-Never then this hidden army that’s waiting to join us in section P will retreat elsewhere. That’s a legitimate concern that anyone involved with the club should be considering. It’s not just the results, it’s the direction of travel at the moment that’s making fans nervy. Debate is healthy. 

[Spider Rico]

23 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The Scottish League is shite as European results would show you (although Queen's are unbeaten in Europe, of course!).

Veldman has been careful to say that what he's trying to do is long term. He'll be under no pressure to gain promotion this year, and most of our fans accept that. If we just wanted to go up without the promotion of younger players, as we're trying to do, we would have signed the usual ex Premier jobbers like Lafferty and Broadfoot.

I think the concern is with the other end of the table in mind, especially after the dross that was served up on Saturday.

And the criticism on squad depth is being aimed at the Director of Football

Edited September 19, 2023 by Spider Rico

[an86]

1 hour ago, Spider Rico said:

I think the concern is with the other end of the table in mind, especially after the dross that was served up on Saturday.

And the criticism on squad depth is being aimed at the Director of Football

Aye. You expect energetic performances under a new regime early on. Saturday was Laurie Ellis levels of tedious and lethargic. However, it’s only a problem if it becomes a pattern. Good win on Friday and the hype train engine will be revving back up. 

[Hampden Diehard]

Random ramblings....The division is certainly stronger than last year with no obvious duffers like the Accies and Cove, so a half decent side might go down.  

I'd agree with the point made that we'll finish strongly. Certainly it'll be stronger than last year! Mind you, we kept it going until the last game which was definitely helped by the quality of the opposition.

The size of the squad will ensure the youngsters are given minutes on the park. Personally, I'll take a few poor results if it allows the kids to improve.... but obviously it's of prime importance that we stay up.

It's going to be an interesting season 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Hampden Diehard