The Big Queen's Park FC Thread

[Cardle is Magic]

Even the argument of developing young players falls apart when you force them into such a self-defeating system. You’re far more likely to damage their progress when they’re getting battered left and right.

Also, Dom Thomas can 100% be a huge asset playing from the right so I certainly wouldn’t say that should be a problem.

[Spooky Spider]

1 hour ago, an86 said:

Doesn’t matter what sector, environment or country you’re walking into, you have to take the landscape you’re working in into account. Whether you’re arriving in the Andorran Sunday pub league, Bundesliga or the Scottish Championship, you have to look at what you’re up against in terms of style and factor that into the plan you’re trying to implement.

If your idea is “there’s one way to play football and this is how we’re going to do it” it’s going to fail. It’s extremely arrogant to think you can walk into any level of football, believe your “philosophy” is superior and work on that basis. We got exactly what we deserved last night. Lee Bullen probably had to spend about fifteen minutes working out his game plan. A total embarrassment.

These guys have to understand that we’re connoisseurs in shite football. We’ve seen amateur Queen’s Park teams jobbing around at the bottom of League Two. They can’t bullshit us. We know what terrible football looks like. Last night was as disorganised as I’ve ever seen us, including when guys were training twice per week and earning nothing. Veldman, Beuker, the coaches and the players are professionals, earning good money. They’re not going to get the same level of patience as the guys who weren’t and nor should they. Shape up or ship out. 

Couldn't agree more. They were headless chickens out there. I don't think they are bad players but they are clearly not able to implement Veldman's game plans. You can't just impose a pure coaching philosophy without reference to the context. I'm no coach but clear our high line is inviting balls over the top and we don't have the pace to cope. If you want ball playing centre halves then get John Stones. If not adapt and play the hand you've been dealt. Problem is the coaches come from a football culture where kids are taught this total football stuff from the age of six. I don't want anyone to lose their jobs but for the love of God we were nearly promoted last season, the boys on the podcast had us finishing second. Not happening the way things are.

[Spider1975]

On 23/09/2023 at 00:09, pmonigatti said:

Would like to see us move to a 3-4-3. I’m sure I read that Veldman used it in the games he took charge at Anderlecht.

The back two are far too fragile against the counter attack, adding that extra body in there may help solve that problem. Especially if the extra man in the 3 is able to step up when in possession to play in the hole where Spong currently sits. 
 

Not sure we can play Fox and Tizzard alone together, too similar in types for me. Bannon looks like he has the extra yard of pace that might allow the other two centre backs to be a bit more physical.

 

No real problem from me playing Dom and Hepburn on either side. I did wonder if todays set up was to try and pair experience with youth on either side.

I don’t thing McKenna was at fault for any of the goals, not sure why he’s getting stick. 
 

My 3-4-3 lineup would probably look something like:

      Hepburn  Paton  Thomas

Robson  Spong  Thomson Longridge

            Fox   Bannon  Tizzard

 

(if we play bannon in between the two bigger lads it might give the right balance)

I honestly don't see how a 3-4-3 would help at the moment, hear me out.

I have a lot of time for Charlie Fox and I think there is a decent defender in there, but he's inconsistent, prone to switching off and if last season showed anything when he's the 'senior' CB of the pairing, QP struggle, he only really kicked on when alongside Kilday last year.  

Added to that the fact Veldman obviously doesn't rate/trust Bannon or Reid you then end up with a Tizzard, Fox and inevitably Thomson at the back and until Savoury is available we just don't have the squad depth not to have Thomson's energy in midfield.  

 

 

[an86]

2 hours ago, Spider1975 said:

Added to that the fact Veldman obviously doesn't rate/trust Bannon or Reid you then end up with a Tizzard, Fox and inevitably Thomson at the back and until Savoury is available we just don't have the squad depth not to have Thomson's energy in midfield.  

 

 

Veldman didn’t/doesn’t know the level. Beuker does. The guy has obviously been told that a gang of kids with half decent technique will be sufficient for this level. He’s finding out that it is not.
 

This is where we are until January. Even any loan signing is going to be inexperienced. If we go five defeats on the bounce, on Saturday, who in that squad is dragging us out of it? The more experienced boys couldn’t do it when we were in a hole last season. You can’t reasonably ask or expect kids to do it. This could actually ruin some of the young players before they’ve gotten off the ground. 
 

We need signs of life at Tannadice. You can lose to anyone at any time in this league, but there are ways of doing it. Two turgid and lifeless performances after Veldman’s subs cost us a result at Stark’s Park. I’m not necessarily sure those two things aren’t connected. 
 

We can talk long term etc. but the reality is that a club with the resources we’ve stumbled into should not be involved in a relegation dogfight. Good coaches recognise when they have to compromise for the greater good. The guy Steve Cooper at Forest a great example of that last season. He had a massive turnover of players, likes the game played in a certain way, but recognised he had to tighten up if he wanted to stay in the Premier League. You can now slowly see signs of them developing into a better footballing side. He’d have been down the job centre if he’d stuck stubbornly to his preferred philosophy. 

[williebraveheart]

1 hour ago, an86 said:

Veldman didn’t/doesn’t know the level. Beuker does. The guy has obviously been told that a gang of kids with half decent technique will be sufficient for this level. He’s finding out that it is not.
 

This is where we are until January. Even any loan signing is going to be inexperienced. If we go five defeats on the bounce, on Saturday, who in that squad is dragging us out of it? The more experienced boys couldn’t do it when we were in a hole last season. You can’t reasonably ask or expect kids to do it. This could actually ruin some of the young players before they’ve gotten off the ground. 
 

We need signs of life at Tannadice. You can lose to anyone at any time in this league, but there are ways of doing it. Two turgid and lifeless performances after Veldman’s subs cost us a result at Stark’s Park. I’m not necessarily sure those two things aren’t connected. 
 

We can talk long term etc. but the reality is that a club with the resources we’ve stumbled into should not be involved in a relegation dogfight. Good coaches recognise when they have to compromise for the greater good. The guy Steve Cooper at Forest a great example of that last season. He had a massive turnover of players, likes the game played in a certain way, but recognised he had to tighten up if he wanted to stay in the Premier League. You can now slowly see signs of them developing into a better footballing side. He’d have been down the job centre if he’d stuck stubbornly to his preferred philosophy. 

I agree, but to my mind neither Veldman nor Beuker have the mindset to change. They are blinkered, which is why I believe their time here is limited. Lord Wullie will only take so much.

[Spider1975]

1 hour ago, an86 said:

Veldman didn’t/doesn’t know the level. Beuker does. The guy has obviously been told that a gang of kids with half decent technique will be sufficient for this level. He’s finding out that it is not.
 

This is where we are until January. Even any loan signing is going to be inexperienced. If we go five defeats on the bounce, on Saturday, who in that squad is dragging us out of it? The more experienced boys couldn’t do it when we were in a hole last season. You can’t reasonably ask or expect kids to do it. This could actually ruin some of the young players before they’ve gotten off the ground.

Agreed.

If the players aren't good enough, then that's a recruitment issue and that's at Beukers door.  If the players are good enough but are consistently (according to Veldman) 'making mishtakes', then that's a coaching issue, which is Veldman's to sort out.   

Recruitment wise, McKenna, Spong Thomson, Thomas, Longridge and potentially Paton are good enough, however we've been looking for a RB for the best part of two years and have failed to find one any better than Davisdon, who was a midfielder by trade anyway and was, one of our best performers towards the end of last season, (low bar, I appreciate).  We've also failed to find any back up to Paton and Turner is no Savoury.

Robson other than a brief glimpse vs Arbroath at Lesser has looked a shadow of his former self since about February when it just so happened he was paired up with Thomas, who also, arguably had his best game in a long time.  Rather than play to that strength, Veldman has tried to shore up the right-side instead, leaving the sum, (as others have said) far weaker than the constituent parts.  I fail to believe that the good vibes about McPherson at Celtic were just waffle.

Plan A is so predictable.  Knock the ball about in midfield/20-25 yards out, side to side etc etc and back when we can't find a way through.  Opposition teams now, as Ayr seemed to do going by the highlights, sit with two banks of four.  Inevitably QP are forced wide, after which the default position is to pass it back inside and try again, because as we know, Beuker doesn't like crosses from out wide.  The defence moves up to create overloads but inevitably we run out of talent/patience, lose the ball and are hit on the counter.   I have no idea what kind of goals Paton scored at QotS, but maybe, just maybe it might be an idea to try a couple of crosses every now and then, given his physique.  Even if he doesn't get there, the chance of a secondary ball falling to one of our attackers might, despite being a bit ugly, be a catalyst to relieve some of the pressure.

United game a free hit, acid test will be Falkirk - a kicking there and I'd be surprised if Veldman survives.  

It's just so bloody weird.  Last year around mid-Feb, it was like a switch, going from beautiful one-touch, pass and move football and winning games to lumping the ball to the corners and wondering by just how many we were going to lose by.  It's happened this year in about four games.

 

 

[Bring Your Own Socks]

I commended Ayr for their finishing but the first goal was a mystery worthy of a closer look. I don’t know what’s happening “all week” at Lochinch but clearly defending set pieces isn’t part of it. But even at that, at the age of 12 I knew the importance of getting between an opponent and the goal line. We have 9 v 5 here and only the goalie in the right place. The front 4 and the two at the back are offering absolutely nothing to this play. The Ayr guys know exactly what they’re doing by blocking the goalie which suggests a scout has spotted this for Bullen to practise. 

If this is how bad we are Beuker and pals need to close the doors and have an honest discussion. There’s nothing about this that needs tweaked. Rip it up and start again!
 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Bring Your Own Socks

[an86]

Look at the state of that. Getting the basics right is the basis of success for pretty much every team. Trying to play 4D chess when we haven’t even learned to play draughts.

Edited September 24, 2023 by an86

[101]

21 minutes ago, Bring Your Own Socks said:

I commended Ayr for their finishing but the first goal was a mystery worthy of a closer look. I don’t know what’s happening “all week” at Lochinch but clearly defending set pieces isn’t part of it. But even at that, at the age of 12 I knew the importance of getting between an opponent and the goal line. We have 9 v 5 here and only the goalie in the right place. The front 4 and the two at the back are offering absolutely nothing to this play. The Ayr guys know exactly what they’re doing by blocking the goalie which suggests a scout has spotted this for Bullen to practise. 

If this is how bad we are Beuker and pals need to close the doors and have an honest discussion. There’s nothing about this that needs tweaked. Rip it up and start again!
 

That just looks like zonal defending. 

Get a head on that and flick it into the backpost and youre scoring every time.

[Spider1975]

49 minutes ago, Bring Your Own Socks said:

I commended Ayr for their finishing but the first goal was a mystery worthy of a closer look. I don’t know what’s happening “all week” at Lochinch but clearly defending set pieces isn’t part of it. But even at that, at the age of 12 I knew the importance of getting between an opponent and the goal line. We have 9 v 5 here and only the goalie in the right place. The front 4 and the two at the back are offering absolutely nothing to this play. The Ayr guys know exactly what they’re doing by blocking the goalie which suggests a scout has spotted this for Bullen to practise. 

If this is how bad we are Beuker and pals need to close the doors and have an honest discussion. There’s nothing about this that needs tweaked. Rip it up and start again!
 

Hanging a Scotland U17 'Keeper out to dry there. 

[Dooflick]

12 hours ago, Spider1975 said:

I honestly don't see how a 3-4-3 would help at the moment, hear me out.

I have a lot of time for Charlie Fox and I think there is a decent defender in there, but he's inconsistent, prone to switching off and if last season showed anything when he's the 'senior' CB of the pairing, QP struggle, he only really kicked on when alongside Kilday last year.  

Added to that the fact Veldman obviously doesn't rate/trust Bannon or Reid you then end up with a Tizzard, Fox and inevitably Thomson at the back and until Savoury is available we just don't have the squad depth not to have Thomson's energy in midfield.  

 

 

Disagree, I think a back three of Tizzard, Bannon and Fox would do the job. Fox cannot play as bad again, Bannon has the ability and pace and Tizzard is the man for the right and side.

[an86]

3 minutes ago, Dooflick said:

Disagree, I think a back three of Tizzard, Bannon and Fox would do the job. Fox cannot play as bad again, Bannon has the ability and pace and Tizzard is the man for the right and side.

If we keep playing a stupidly high line, it doesn’t really matter who we play.

[QP MAD]

How many loans are we going to get before month end …..hopefully two or three above the age of 24 . Think we need another central defender and another striker then it’s down to our manager to play them in their correct position…that might be the biggest problem. 

[williebraveheart]

52 minutes ago, QP MAD said:

How many loans are we going to get before month end …..hopefully two or three above the age of 24 . Think we need another central defender and another striker then it’s down to our manager to play them in their correct position…that might be the biggest problem. 

It is not going to happen.

[ExiledLichtie]

1 hour ago, QP MAD said:

How many loans are we going to get before month end …..hopefully two or three above the age of 24 . Think we need another central defender and another striker then it’s down to our manager to play them in their correct position…that might be the biggest problem. 

There doesn't seem to be an awful lot of value in the loan market.  When you combine the 5 sub rule with larger benches and B teams in the challenge cup, clubs are keeping hold of their better players.  The ones they are sending out on loan are arguably far too raw for the championship.  Sometimes you might get a gem, but very rarely! Plus the delayed loan window means that clubs don't want to send their players out until the last minute, which messes up all our plans at this level.

Our manager announced that he was "done with the loan system" after last season.

[Dti]

Almost all the goals were at ground level,(also the first last week v Dunfermline) and McKenna comes sliding out with his feet. 
maybe Ferrie should be given a chance   

[pmonigatti]

17 hours ago, Spider1975 said:

I honestly don't see how a 3-4-3 would help at the moment, hear me out.

I have a lot of time for Charlie Fox and I think there is a decent defender in there, but he's inconsistent, prone to switching off and if last season showed anything when he's the 'senior' CB of the pairing, QP struggle, he only really kicked on when alongside Kilday last year.  

Added to that the fact Veldman obviously doesn't rate/trust Bannon or Reid you then end up with a Tizzard, Fox and inevitably Thomson at the back and until Savoury is available we just don't have the squad depth not to have Thomson's energy in midfield.  

 

 

I think it’s worth a shot. I do agree with you regarding Thomson in the midfield. I was impressed with Reid at the Livingston game (overall). He seemed quite composed and it took a very impressive headed goal to break the deadlock that night.

As unrealistic it may be, I hope we are at least enquiring with Rangers to try take their young centre back Leon King on loan. Similar sort of arrangement to McPherson from Celtic. I think he’d be a welcome addition and maybe be that third piece i’m hoping for.

It’s all pie in the sky really, but we can live in hope!

[pmonigatti]

Anyone know what happened to the old german flag captain’s armband?

Not been following QP for long but interested to understand why its no longer used.

[Spider1975]

9 hours ago, ExiledLichtie said:

There doesn't seem to be an awful lot of value in the loan market.  When you combine the 5 sub rule with larger benches and B teams in the challenge cup, clubs are keeping hold of their better players.  The ones they are sending out on loan are arguably far too raw for the championship.  Sometimes you might get a gem, but very rarely! Plus the delayed loan window means that clubs don't want to send their players out until the last minute, which messes up all our plans at this level.

Our manager announced that he was "done with the loan system" after last season.

Reckon Mr Campbell has a point.  The loanees we had last year, with the exception of Mal Boateng were, quite frankly, a waste of time.  Oakley showed some promise initially but seemed thereafter to be constantly injured/ill/blighted with niggles, so I was encouraged initially this year that QP had reduced their reliance to just Barry Hepburn and latterly Ben McPherson.  Given Veldman's strange team selections & omissions, I'm hoping that the reason Beuker & Dumpster are so conspicuous by their absence, (the silence is deafening), is that they are trawling the academies south of the border for some cover.

[Spider1975]

6 hours ago, pmonigatti said:

I think it’s worth a shot. I do agree with you regarding Thomson in the midfield. I was impressed with Reid at the Livingston game (overall). He seemed quite composed and it took a very impressive headed goal to break the deadlock that night.

 

Yeah, thought Reid looked good in that game too; a few tense moments between him McKenna and Tizzard, but he looked steady and composed.  Having watched the QP highlights (rather than the Ayr feed) last night, anything is worth a shot; there was no back 'line', evidently no communication and as Ayr showed, you could drive a coach and horses through the middle all night long.