Our Competitive League

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Points handicaps etc don’t make any sense to me. 

Surely you’re better to tackle the source of the problem than artificially tackle the symptom. 

Yes, exactly.

That's well put.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, hk blues said:

 

If you're hanging your hat on my comment that the OF game is superior to any other in the Scottish game in terms of TV viewing then you've either not watched much Scottish football on TV or are allowing your bias against them to cloud your judgement. 

Stop havering Man.

I don't even recall you making such a comment, never mind my alleged attempt to hang a hat on it.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[Jinky67]

8 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

So let's ask the OF fans who have got involved this discussion so far @Jinky67@AJF because your responses may mimic what can be expected from the supporters of the more successful clubs in every nation and what any proponents of change will face: (answer each from 0 = absolutely not to 10 = big time)

1./ Are you genuinely content with the present duopoly as it stands.

2./ Would you welcome stronger competition domestically that means you may lose a few more per season and win less silverwear (Less Tina Turner and Depeche Mode)

3./ Willing to have a sporting handicap placed on you (points deduction, starting a game -2 goals, squad cap, you go back to three subs, rest of league stays at 5 or something else)

4./ Willing to diminish/redistribute any of your current income (both reported £90m ish), also indicate how much

and no score but:

5./ What would would you be willing to accept and would you suggest any solution

Maybe some OF may support this but they'd want it that extended to Juventus, RB Leipzig and Lyon too, so they weren't further from competing in the CL.

Ok fair questions so let me stick my head on the guillotine 

1.  5/10 - I can appreciate the tedium of the current status quo for fans of the other teams however I’d be lying if I said winning feels good no matter how many times you have seen it happen before. Last season was up there with some of the best seasons I can remember for enjoyment and I suppose that’s the key - do I still enjoy it and the answer is yes. I can’t explain that but they are in some way all a bit different
2. 8/10 - Absolutely, stronger competition domestically forces us to also be better which can only benefit the Scottish game and help us do better in Europe. This is something I’ve been quite open about that a big thing for me is to be able to see my team win a European trophy again. I do remember watching Dundee Utd/ Aberdeen in the 80’s doing well in Europe and rooting for them. I’d love to see other clubs in our league reach those levels again.
3. 0/10 - just not something I can get onboard with and I know this will not land very well but we are now talking about sporting integrity and fairness and there has to be better ways to address this without it being made to feel you are being punished for being successful.
4. 5/10 - Again this depends on what we are talking about here. If it’s a case of redistribution of all revenues that it is just a flat out no. As I’ve said a bucket list wish of mine is to see Celtic win a European trophy again and significant re-distribution of that revenue will make that in my opinion an impossibility. If Celtic/Rangers were forced to redistribute all revenues this way it would then diminish our ability to compete or even qualify so those European revenues in a few seasons just wouldn’t be available to redistribute so in that sense everyone loses in my opinion, I’d much rather see clubs do better at this level than it become even more of a pipe dream than it is currently. Sharing of domestic TV revenues, prize moneys etc and I’m aware this pales into insignificance when compared to European prize monies but I do think UEFA are part of the problem here with the revenues offered and required to compete. A hypothetical to prove such a point would be that if Aberdeen had to finish 2nd and this season and qualify for the Champions League. The money they receive would put them out of reach of every other club for years. There has however have to be ways to generate more domestic revenue that are explorable to increase the pots available for equal share or could there be some sort of European trickle down payment based on us improving our co-efficient or performance related bonus for the league, let’s say Scottish clubs make £50m of revenue from European completion there could be some sort of multiplier bonus paid out that increases the further a club from that league goes so the club performing retains the revenues it earns but is earning for their league too. What would be realistic in terms of what % of revenue is kicked back and shared amongst the league I don’t know but imagine a 50% revenue kicker back to the league if we happened to win one? 
5. it’s a really difficult question to answer. Legally I imagine it’s a monster change of legislation to enforce redistribution of wealth in just Scotland without it happening in all UEFA territories. You also have to get Celtic/Rangers shareholders to be onboard and that’s very unlikely to happen. Other possible things to be looked at is our TV deal, I’ve said many times it’s shite compared to what other countries of equal size can get. Someone mentioned before there has to be opportunity to grow that into other markets though but we have already started such as the Japan TV deal that all clubs profit from with the interest in Celtics Japanese contingent. Yeah it somewhat forces a transfer policy but it’s also marketable. Other things such as wage caps, squad caps, restriction on foreign players. When it comes to loan rules we loan a lot of our players out to other Scottish clubs, allow these players to play in all games including against their parent clubs and I already mentioned UEFA revenues being changed to give a significant performance related kicker back to the parent leagues. Failing that we are talking about Super Leagues and Celtic and Rangers leaving the Scottish game

Tried to be as honest as I can be and leaving myself wide open to critique and no doubt MT telling me what my opinion should be  however debate is always good if it’s well constructed.
I have to be honest I can’t say I do not enjoy my team winning, people say it must be boring or feel hollow but it never has but I don’t take it for granted either. I remember us being pish, very pish but I was still there and will always be there no matter how much or little success we have in the future.

Good question though, really had me thinking

Edited December 26, 2022 by Jinky67

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, hk blues said:

 

Let me finish my input on this thread by saying that the OF are NOT good for our game - I've no idea how things would look without them though. But, if we have to tolerate them then I'd prefer they be competitive with each other.

 

Your inability to recognise that it's the fact there's two of them competing, that makes their presence so bad for our game, is very frustrating.

[Richey Edwards]

If both arsecheek clubs were fined every time a sectarian chant was heard then the financial gulf will disappear in no time.

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

The heart of the issue is finance. If the financial disparity is not going to be changed, then the competition has to move away from being a pure meritocracy and include play-offs etc.

The only solutions that would ever work are solutions that would strike us all as weird and prompt folk to claim the whole world was laughing at us.

I've seen a few people suggesting numbers of home-grown/Scottish players in the squad on a matchday. We've already sort of seen this. Forcing clubs to have homegrown players in the squad simply stops players being sent out on loan and leads to them rotting on the bench for clubs who have no intention of paying them, but need them to tick a box. It will not make our league competitive.

Similarly, having a requirement for X number of Scottish players would simply drive up the domestic value of Scottish players and lead to more of the good ones being at the OF than we have now. And since the OF's financial advantage means they already have vastly superior foreign players it would not in any way make for a competitive division.

There is no solution to this that won't strike people as a bit mad.

You forgot to mention Aberdeen/stadium/unsustainable losses...

[VincentGuerin]

6 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

You forgot to mention Aberdeen/stadium/unsustainable losses...

Shh. We'll get back to that.

It's Hibs today.

[Monkey Tennis]

21 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Ok fair questions so let me stick my head on the guillotine 

1.  5/10 - I can appreciate the tedium of the current status quo for fans of the other teams however I’d be lying if I said winning feels good no matter how many times you have seen it happen before. Last season was up there with some of the best seasons I can remember for enjoyment and I suppose that’s the key - do I still enjoy it and the answer is yes. I can’t explain that but they are in some way all a bit different
2. 8/10 - Absolutely, stronger competition domestically forces us to also be better which can only benefit the Scottish game and help us do better in Europe. This is something I’ve been quite open about that a big thing for me is to be able to see my team win a European trophy again. I do remember watching Dundee Utd/ Aberdeen in the 80’s doing well in Europe and rooting for them. I’d love to see other clubs in our league reach those levels again.
3. 0/10 - just not something I can get onboard with and I know this will not land very well but we are now talking about sporting integrity and fairness and there has to be better ways to address this without it being made to feel you are being punished for being successful.
4. 5/10 - Again this depends on what we are talking about here. If it’s a case of redistribution of all revenues that it is just a flat out no. As I’ve said a bucket list wish of mine is to see Celtic win a European trophy again and significant re-distribution of that revenue will make that in my opinion an impossibility. If Celtic/Rangers were forced to redistribute all revenues this way it would then diminish our ability to compete or even qualify so those European revenues in a few seasons just wouldn’t be available to redistribute so in that sense everyone loses in my opinion, I’d much rather see clubs do better at this level than it become even more of a pipe dream than it is currently. Sharing of domestic TV revenues, prize moneys etc and I’m aware this pales into insignificance when compared to European prize monies but I do think UEFA are part of the problem here with the revenues offered and required to compete. A hypothetical to prove such a point would be that if Aberdeen had to finish 2nd and this season and qualify for the Champions League. The money they receive would put them out of reach of every other club for years. There has however have to be ways to generate more domestic revenue that are explorable to increase the pots available for equal share or could there be some sort of European trickle down payment based on us improving our co-efficient or performance related bonus for the league, let’s say Scottish clubs make £50m of revenue from European completion there could be some sort of multiplier bonus paid out that increases the further a club from that league goes so the club performing retains the revenues it earns but is earning for their league too. What would be realistic in terms of what % of revenue is kicked back and shared amongst the league I don’t know but imagine a 50% revenue kicker back to the league if we happened to win one? 
5. it’s a really difficult question to answer. Legally I imagine it’s a monster change of legislation to enforce redistribution of wealth in just Scotland without it happening in all UEFA territories. You also have to get Celtic/Rangers shareholders to be onboard and that’s very unlikely to happen. Other possible things to be looked at is our TV deal, I’ve said many times it’s shite compared to what other countries of equal size can get. Someone mentioned before there has to be opportunity to grow that into other markets though but we have already started such as the Japan TV deal that all clubs profit from with the interest in Celtics Japanese contingent. Yeah it somewhat forces a transfer policy but it’s also marketable. Other things such as wage caps, squad caps, restriction on foreign players. When it comes to loan rules we loan a lot of our players out to other Scottish clubs, allow these players to play in all games including against their parent clubs and I already mentioned UEFA revenues being changed to give a significant performance related kicker back to the parent leagues. Failing that we are talking about Super Leagues and Celtic and Rangers leaving the Scottish game

Tried to be as honest as I can be and leaving myself wide open to critique and no doubt MT telling me what my opinion should be  however debate is always good if it’s well constructed.
I have to be honest I can’t say I do not enjoy my team winning, people say it must be boring or feel hollow but it never has but I don’t take it for granted either. I remember us being pish, very pish but I was still there and will always be there no matter how much or little success we have in the future.

Good question though, really had me thinking

Your responses to Questions 2 and 4 are largely incompatible.

[VincentGuerin]

7 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Your responses to Questions 2 and 4 are largely incompatible.

Reminds me of the line from one of the old Only an Excuse stage shows about how the Scottish media definitely wanted someone to challenge the Old Firm.

'Nothing too serious, mind...'

[Jinky67]

10 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Your responses to Questions 2 and 4 are largely incompatible.

No they aren’t because it’s hypothetical and based on purely opinion because the notion of having a competitive league without redistribution of current wealth is an ideal which is allowable as an option. Is it realistic? No but none of it is but he asked for my opinion….not yours

But thanks for not letting me down and being the first to comment on what my opinion should be. I should have just asked you to write it for me?

Edited December 26, 2022 by Jinky67

[Jinky67]

3 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Reminds me of the line from one of the old Only an Excuse stage shows about how the Scottish media definitely wanted someone to challenge the Old Firm.

'Nothing too serious, mind...'

I have that on VHS, great show but would be cancelled in todays society especially with the references to Jimmy Hill

Edited December 26, 2022 by Jinky67

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Jinky67 said:

No they aren’t because it’s hypothetical and based on purely opinion because the notion of having a competitive league without redistribution of current wealth is an ideal which is allowable as an option. Is it realistic? No but none of it is but he asked for my opinion….not yours

But thanks for not letting me down and being the first to comment on what my opinion should be. I should have just asked you to write it for me? 

I think your opinion should be exactly as it is.  I don't want you living a lie Mate.

[Jinky67]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I think your opinion should be exactly as it is.  I don't want you living a lie Mate.

You have zero chance of that if nothing else I’m authentically me like it or not and that won’t change albeit i’m little more kranky than normal being in bed with the rona and missing my Xmas dinner 

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

You have zero chance of that if nothing else I’m authentically me like it or not and that won’t change albeit i’m little more kranky than normal being in bed with the rona and missing my Xmas dinner 

Yip, authentically hypocritical, right wing, self serving and emotionally immature.

Get well soon though.

[Jinky67]

27 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yip, authentically hypocritical, right wing, self serving and emotionally immature.

 

Don’t do that my chest is pretty sore from coughing and that outburst of laughter just about ended me.

Probably not the emotionally immature, right wing response you were hoping for mind you

Edited December 26, 2022 by Jinky67

[Kapowzer]

@AJF and @Jinky67 not surprisingly in this case aligned. The sporting penalty/"punished for being successful" is one way of looking at it. Another would be a handicap system to level the playing field as in horse racing and golf where a 20 year 2 games a week guy can go toe to toe with a someone starting out. I've always found it strange that some sports level things and others such as football and tennis introduce seeding which limits the chances of truly fair and random draw.

Another few questions for you to answer then as we're on a roll:

1./ I assume you both have season tickets (or have had), how much weight of that purchase do you attribute to securing a seat for the two OF games you host?

( I ask after watching Celtic host Livi last week and the swathes of empty seats)

2./ Irrespective of your answer above, what do you reckon is the percentage of your that fans do?

(Speaking for my own club, there is a massive drop off when the OF come to town but midweek, Saturdays and weekend TV games, the number is pretty uniform)

3./ Would you countenance retaining less UEFA money if it was mandated all over Europe to all teams?

Here's an example you both may have synergy of thought on two, both of you have had highly rated players in Patterson and Doak move on before you really had a look at them. The same issue we had with Turnbull (got a year out him at least) before we was moved on. Now the money we got is crucial for a club like us, but consequently we and every team in Scotland knows that the OF have the funds to make sure any talent you get can't progress beyond a year or two max and no chance of building a team around him.

 

I suppose the one way to tackle things is to take Scottish rugby as an example. Here me out on this.

So all league, UEFA and other revenues pooled, invested in academies all over the nation with the same frequency as police stations (as they are a good arbiter of population density). Almost universal football coaching, kids are locked to an academy and associated feeder club until 21. If there is a precocious talent in the Alloa area then there must be something that could be arranged with a higher league club to not stifle the kids development/boost funds of the region but in theory the standard would raise for all 42 teams. At present the best talent is hoovered up due to a mixture of "we can so we will", hedging your bets they will turn out OK and stifling the competition.

The buy in and scale of the task from building new academies, upgrading existing and then the territorial bun fight, politics and negotiations is huge and would be draining. The task is also to 10x the recruitment and training of coaches and public to engage and send their kids.

When it comes to Europe, any teams who qualify can select players on a draft system from any other team in the country soley for playing in European competition CL, EL, UCL in that order. Bit like a Melrose player being selected for Glasgow Warriors.

If this was implemented 10 years ago, would an Aberdeen fan be OK seeing Calvin Ramsey turn out in Royal Blue or Hoops 8-10x a season. Especially as the OF has more than a Geographical legacy. Kieran Tierney who grew up within spitting distance of Fir Park and under this would be in our academy under this system, if Rangers drafted him would he have went? What would happen if Tony Watt is injured playing as he was drafted for Hearts in the UCL for Dundee United?

It will never happen as we never do long term, big picture stuff and many would also consider this communist.

[Monkey Tennis]

15 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

@AJF  @Jinky67

So all league, UEFA and other revenues pooled, invested in academies all over the nation with the same frequency as police stations (as they are a good arbiter of population density). Almost universal football coaching, kids are locked to an academy and associated feeder club until 21. If there is a precocious talent in the Alloa area then there must be something that could be arranged with a higher league club to not stifle the kids development/boost funds of the region but in theory the standard would raise for all 42 teams. At present the best talent is hoovered up due to a mixture of "we can so we will", hedging your bets they will turn out OK and stifling the competition.

The buy in and scale of the task from building new academies, upgrading existing and then the territorial bun fight, politics and negotiations is huge and would be draining. The task is also to 10x the recruitment and training of coaches and public to engage and send their kids.

When it comes to Europe, any teams who qualify can select players on a draft system from any other team in the country soley for playing in European competition CL, EL, UCL in that order. Bit like a Melrose player being selected for Glasgow Warriors.

If this was implemented 10 years ago, would an Aberdeen fan be OK seeing Calvin Ramsey turn out in Royal Blue or Hoops 8-10x a season. Especially as the OF has more than a Geographical legacy. Kieran Tierney who grew up within spitting distance of Fir Park and under this would be in our academy under this system, if Rangers drafted him would he have went? What would happen if Tony Watt is injured playing as he was drafted for Hearts in the UCL for Dundee United?.

The current mess has never looked more attractive.

[Kapowzer]

22 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

The current mess has never looked more attractive.

I'd give your summary creedence if you hadn't suggested something crazy yourself then spent the next 7 pages sniping others.

[Jinky67]

54 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

@AJF and @Jinky67 not surprisingly in this case aligned. The sporting penalty/"punished for being successful" is one way of looking at it. Another would be a handicap system to level the playing field as in horse racing and golf where a 20 year 2 games a week guy can go toe to toe with a someone starting out. I've always found it strange that some sports level things and others such as football and tennis introduce seeding which limits the chances of truly fair and random draw.

Another few questions for you to answer then as we're on a roll:

1./ I assume you both have season tickets (or have had), how much weight of that purchase do you attribute to securing a seat for the two OF games you host?

( I ask after watching Celtic host Livi last week and the swathes of empty seats)

2./ Irrespective of your answer above, what do you reckon is the percentage of your that fans do?

(Speaking for my own club, there is a massive drop off when the OF come to town but midweek, Saturdays and weekend TV games, the number is pretty uniform)

3./ Would you countenance retaining less UEFA money if it was mandated all over Europe to all teams?

Here's an example you both may have synergy of thought on two, both of you have had highly rated players in Patterson and Doak move on before you really had a look at them. The same issue we had with Turnbull (got a year out him at least) before we was moved on. Now the money we got is crucial for a club like us, but consequently we and every team in Scotland knows that the OF have the funds to make sure any talent you get can't progress beyond a year or two max and no chance of building a team around him.

 

I suppose the one way to tackle things is to take Scottish rugby as an example. Here me out on this.

So all league, UEFA and other revenues pooled, invested in academies all over the nation with the same frequency as police stations (as they are a good arbiter of population density). Almost universal football coaching, kids are locked to an academy and associated feeder club until 21. If there is a precocious talent in the Alloa area then there must be something that could be arranged with a higher league club to not stifle the kids development/boost funds of the region but in theory the standard would raise for all 42 teams. At present the best talent is hoovered up due to a mixture of "we can so we will", hedging your bets they will turn out OK and stifling the competition.

The buy in and scale of the task from building new academies, upgrading existing and then the territorial bun fight, politics and negotiations is huge and would be draining. The task is also to 10x the recruitment and training of coaches and public to engage and send their kids.

When it comes to Europe, any teams who qualify can select players on a draft system from any other team in the country soley for playing in European competition CL, EL, UCL in that order. Bit like a Melrose player being selected for Glasgow Warriors.

If this was implemented 10 years ago, would an Aberdeen fan be OK seeing Calvin Ramsey turn out in Royal Blue or Hoops 8-10x a season. Especially as the OF has more than a Geographical legacy. Kieran Tierney who grew up within spitting distance of Fir Park and under this would be in our academy under this system, if Rangers drafted him would he have went? What would happen if Tony Watt is injured playing as he was drafted for Hearts in the UCL for Dundee United?

It will never happen as we never do long term, big picture stuff and many would also consider this communist.

1. Yes I’ve had a season ticket for close to 30 years and no i wouldn’t say that the decision to buy is weighted more towards getting a ticket for the Rangers game. At the current prices if that’s the sole interest is almost £300 for both games which doesn’t represent value for money at all and could probably buy tickets elsewhere for less if you just wanted to go to that game.

I have 4 sons all of which have season tickets and all started out as tickets without Rangers games as the atmosphere as everyone is aware can be poisonous so wanted their experience of going to football to be fun and enjoyable without that additional factor until I was happy they were mature enough to deal with it. Circumstances have now changed, my eldest started as an academy coach this season at Celtic and can get tickets for home games so if again that was my sole interest I would cancel it but I appreciate not everyone is in a similar situation>

2. I want to try give you an honest answer but find this really hard to quantify. As a guess though I’d suggest you typical fair weather or casual fan that just turns up for the Rangers games or other big games is around 15-20% maybe? The fans that sit around me are generally always there and many have been for about 10 years so it doesn’t change that much so it’s a difficult question to answer so it’s my only real gauge. There are a lot of older fans too who sometimes don’t come out during the really cold months which is also fair enough 

3. If mandated across all UEFA territories then yes it would be a much less bitter pill to swallow as in theory it would still be a relatively level playing field with those we are trying to compete with in Europe. However we would also have to find ways to increase our revenues because without that we would quickly find ourselves in the red 

Your thoughts on young players is really interesting as a concept, and I’m ironically typing this as Ben Doak makes his Premiership debut for Liverpool however as you say probably something beyond the realms of possibility mostly due to the cost of ensuring the academies required to ensure the same experience is delivered in every region is maybe beyond our scope. We are now living in a time we too struggle to retain our best young talent but we need to learn evolve and emulate the likes of Ajax who do this year in and out successfully however I’d love to see options that allow us to be able to retain and develop talent much better and receive better recompense if they leave as youngsters like Doak. I know this is self serving and doesn’t really answer your question but definitely open to suggestions that prioritise youth development and ensure more of these kids are given a real chance 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Jinky67

[Monkey Tennis]

14 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

I'd give your summary creedence if you hadn't suggested something crazy yourself then spent the next 7 pages sniping others.

Are you saying there's Clearwater between our proposals?