Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[2426255]

2 hours ago, immcinto said:

Everyone who wants Clarke to stay on - serious question, what are you expecting to happen? Can you just provide the future scenario you see panning out? I am genuinly intrigued. 

As someone who is happy for Clarke to stay on all I want really is for Scotland to keep moving forward with the plans in place to try and get better against Pot-1 teams.

I'm not demanding miracles in the Nations League given it kicks off in September. A reasonable start (it doesn't have to be perfect) to the Nations League and World Cup qualifying is fine. The main thing I'd like to see is an improvement with the ball, we aren't good at playing with the ball irrespective of personnel. That was the biggest disappointment from the tournament for me. If we can marry up those two objectives I'll be happy.

Anything beyond that is icing on the cake. I leave the rest in terms of how that's done to Clarke and the players. If that can't be achieved then I'll be open to reassessing wider things like the the manager's performance and all of that.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

On 28/05/2023 at 20:01, Theroadlesstravelled said:

He has the best set of Scotland players available to him for more than a generation, possibly 25 years.

For me he has failed his biggest test of getting out the group at the Euros and qualifying for the World Cup. Friendlies in The Nations League don't count.

As true now as it was then.

[PSJ.84]

7 hours ago, immcinto said:

Everyone who wants Clarke to stay on - serious question, what are you expecting to happen? Can you just provide the future scenario you see panning out? I am genuinly intrigued. The best arguement I have heard so far is that the SFA will likely hire someone worse - is there something else I am missing?

Main reason I’m not Clarke out is that I have faith in him being able to turn things around. We’ve had bad dips under Clarke before - granted not to this extent - but we’ve always come out the other side stronger. The record in big games is a big concern, however, and if the Nations League is another disaster then I think the time is right to part ways. 

[FalkirkBairn2021]

5 hours ago, Chripper said:

The SFA could appoint Guardiola or Klopp and we'd not see an improvement.

 

Why have Austria miraculously improved under Rangnick?

[Scary Bear]

The qualifying campaigns are just a means to an end. The goal of most credible international teams is to qualify for tournaments and then progress through them. Steve Clarke is just the latest Scottish manager who is incapable of achieving this.

I’m still Clarke out. He’s had two Euros and there’s been no improvement in performance at tournaments. I’m not sure whether some foreign manager who the SFA deemed fit would get any more out the squad but I do know there’s no point getting to tournaments only to get a couple of defeats and draw.

The bigger questions are why aren’t there more Scottish international quality players available to select? And why is the history of Scottish men’s international football one of abject failure at tournaments?

Unless the dust settles and Clarke makes an announcement then it’s likely he’s here until 2026. I don’t mind the guy. He’s done well in qualification. The first Euros I was fine with. Second Euros, not so much. 

[git-intae-thum]

If there was an obvious forward thinking replacement ready and waiting then maybe it would be time for Clarke to move on.

But there really isn't.

However a big change in team tactics is required. Every successful international  team has a progressive possession based philosophy. We need to adopt this if we want to improve. Get the decades old defensive dogma in the bin. That only works when you can defend. 

Not an easy transition to make when you see the teams we are facing over the next year or so.

It could be a hard time to be a Scotland fan.

Hopefully Clarke can pull it around.

[2426255]

29 minutes ago, Scary Bear said:

The qualifying campaigns are just a means to an end. The goal of most credible international teams is to qualify for tournaments and then progress through them. Steve Clarke is just the latest Scottish manager who is incapable of achieving this.

I’m still Clarke out. He’s had two Euros and there’s been no improvement in performance at tournaments. I’m not sure whether some foreign manager who the SFA deemed fit would get any more out the squad but I do know there’s no point getting to tournaments only to get a couple of defeats and draw.

It's Clarke's job to qualify for tournaments, that is the criteria he is judged against in his contract. His contract doesn't have terms around performance when Scotland get there. Qualifying for tournaments provide the finance to help improve the game in Scotland and so is also a means to an end in that respect.

[Scary Bear]

19 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

It's Clarke's job to qualify for tournaments, that is the criteria he is judged against in his contract. His contract doesn't have terms around performance when Scotland get there. Qualifying for tournaments provide the finance to help improve the game in Scotland and so is also a means to an end in that respect.

Improving the game in Scotland is key. If you do that at grassroots level you produce more players and better players.

At men’s international level, qualifying again after so long without qualifying is a welcome change.

I can’t see the SFA asking Clarke to leave, so unless he feels he’s done as much as he can, then he’s here until 2026.

Qualifying for the Euros again is good. Better than not qualifying. It would be nice if we could win a game when we get to a tournament.

f**k me, that looks like I’m an AI with that response. 

Anyway, if by some miracle he gets us to the 2026 World Cup for the LDL sequence then all is forgiven.

Edited June 27 by Scary Bear

[Old Bing]

10 hours ago, Chripper said:

The SFA could appoint Guardiola or Klopp and we'd not see an improvement.

Don't recall SAF winning more than a point at the 86 world cup.

If and when Steve Clarke goes, and after the inevitable 18 years of failure to qualify for a tournament, I hope the people who are in the "Steve Clarke camp" look back on this period of back to back Euro qualification and wished that they appreciated it a wee bit more.

Sorry to tell people but it's not going to get better than this.

Scottish football is filled with selfish, self serving clubs who cling to survival rather than wanting to thrive.

Clubs so bad that they annually get beat by Estonian, Icelandic, etc, teams as they hysterically attempt to qualify for European club competitions.

Two clubs who rule the roost and don't care a jot about Scotland. 10 other top tier clubs who view playing the aforementioned two clubs four times a season more important than growth and progression.

Time to accept reality. It ain't gonna got better than this unless Scottish football undergoes a major overhaul.

Apart from your first sentence I agree, can you provide some evidence that steve Clarke is as good as Pep or Klopp!

[Old Bing]

4 hours ago, PSJ.84 said:

Main reason I’m not Clarke out is that I have faith in him being able to turn things around. We’ve had bad dips under Clarke before - granted not to this extent - but we’ve always come out the other side stronger. The record in big games is a big concern, however, and if the Nations League is another disaster then I think the time is right to part ways. 

Ok but that's 2 euros with probably the easiest chance we've every had of getting thru. With the best team we've had in years. 

We were promised improvement and we got decline. And you want to just go for it again? We will be here again discussing the same things, there's no shortage of good experienced managers out there. Why stick with the guy who shits the bed at the euros.

[velo army]

It's the culture in the team that's the problem for me and it's never more obvious than in big games. I want a manager, ideally a foreigner, with experience and an ability to help Scotland players genuinely believe that they are good enough to compete and get a result against anyone. 

The thing about our Euro performance is it underlines and perhaps even solidifies the idea that we're not very good and shouldn't even bother trying. 

[Gordon EF]

Georgia picked up more Euros points last night than we have in 28 years.

We can't be looking at that and seeing it as evidence that we're shite and always will be. It's a sign that we have massively underachieved and still are.

Edited June 27 by Gordon EF

[FalkirkBairn2021]

1 hour ago, git-intae-thum said:

If there was an obvious forward thinking replacement ready and waiting then maybe it would be time for Clarke to move on.

But there really isn't.

Isn't there? Austria got Rangnick. Albania appointed Sylvinho who had a dubious pedigree but they looked far better and more progressive than us.

We have to be able to find a better replacement for Clarke even if it's a left field one like Sylvinho. 

Depends if we are willing to fail to get better. I'd take the gamble because the Clarke experience is woeful.

[Old Bing]

Think the sfa need to consider that there's different types of managers. A guy like clarke for a certain club can be great.

And joking aside being able to shitfest a game and come away with a result is a great skill. Not great for the supporters maybe.

But for international management? We've had some good results but it's always been back to the walls stuff. Can anyone name a game where scotland played good attacking football under clarke? It's just not his thing.

It's nothing personal, it's just football. We need to aim higher and believe we can be better.

I think mcinnis and moyes wouldn't offer much better their both defensive pragmatic coach's. Again that's no bad thing but it's not what we need.

At this point I think we need a change and even if it was an interim appointment for the nations league, just about anyone could offer an improvement.

[Old Bing]

7 minutes ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

Isn't there? Austria got Rangnick. Albania appointed Sylvinho who had a dubious pedigree but they looked far better and more progressive than us.

We have to be able to find a better replacement for Clarke even if it's a left field one like Sylvinho. 

Depends if we are willing to fail to get better. I'd take the gamble because the Clarke experience is woeful.

No of course not, every decent forward thinking coach in the  world is unavailable or disinterested in the job. Did you not get the memo they sent out together.

[velo army]

2 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Think the sfa need to consider that there's different types of managers. A guy like clarke for a certain club can be great.

And joking aside being able to shitfest a game and come away with a result is a great skill. Not great for the supporters maybe.

But for international management? We've had some good results but it's always been back to the walls stuff. Can anyone name a game where scotland played good attacking football under clarke? It's just not his thing.

It's nothing personal, it's just football. We need to aim higher and believe we can be better.

 

I think mcinnis and moyes wouldn't offer much better their both defensive pragmatic coach's. Again that's no bad thing but it's not what we need.

At this point I think we need a change and even if it was an interim appointment for the nations league, just about anyone could offer an improvement.

I actually think that we played good (counter) attacking football at home to Spain. Honestly 4-0 in that game wouldn't have flattered is. Christie and Dykes both missed great chances. 

The best stuff we played against Switzerland was on the counter attack, but when teams sit in against us Clarke has no plan. I do think we have the players to be more attacking and confident.

My fear with a left field foreign appointment would be the Scottish media giving him no leeway at all and would just be waiting for the first mistake or weakness. 

 

[Old Bing]

9 minutes ago, velo army said:

I actually think that we played good (counter) attacking football at home to Spain. Honestly 4-0 in that game wouldn't have flattered is. Christie and Dykes both missed great chances. 

The best stuff we played against Switzerland was on the counter attack, but when teams sit in against us Clarke has no plan. I do think we have the players to be more attacking and confident.

My fear with a left field foreign appointment would be the Scottish media giving him no leeway at all and would just be waiting for the first mistake or weakness. 

 

Yeah I get that, I've given him credit for the counter attacking stuff, it's not enough tho. He's never managed a good team, these are the best players he's managed. 

And don't be scared mate, I'm here I will help guide us thru this  

Edited June 27 by Bing.McCrosby

[PrestersKTID]

4 hours ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

Why have Austria miraculously improved under Rangnick?

He's a good coach despite what the english media would have you believe. He had Schalke in a Champions league semi final. Did wonders with Leipzig and the Austrian team are all based in Bundesliga with a scattering of Serie A, Austrian League.

His comments on players and behind scenes at Man utd have been proven right.

 

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

11 hours ago, Chripper said:

The SFA could appoint Guardiola or Klopp and we'd not see an improvement.

Don't recall SAF winning more than a point at the 86 world cup.

If and when Steve Clarke goes, and after the inevitable 18 years of failure to qualify for a tournament, I hope the people who are in the "Steve Clarke camp" look back on this period of back to back Euro qualification and wished that they appreciated it a wee bit more.

Sorry to tell people but it's not going to get better than this.

Scottish football is filled with selfish, self serving clubs who cling to survival rather than wanting to thrive.

Clubs so bad that they annually get beat by Estonian, Icelandic, etc, teams as they hysterically attempt to qualify for European club competitions.

Two clubs who rule the roost and don't care a jot about Scotland. 10 other top tier clubs who view playing the aforementioned two clubs four times a season more important than growth and progression.

Time to accept reality. It ain't gonna got better than this unless Scottish football undergoes a major overhaul.

I'd take my chances tbf

[Scary Bear]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

Georgia picked up more Euros points last night than we have in 28 years.

We can't be looking at that and seeing it as evidence that we're shite and always will be. It's a sign that we have massively underachieved and still are.

Football is about winning games. Our manager and far too many of our media, players and fans seem to be happy to settle for draws before a ball is kicked. There is also talk of free hits when playing anyone better. That’s an absolutely dreadful mentality.

Edited June 27 by Scary Bear