The Strange Case of Tom Cairney

[ArabFC]

14 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

Refer to:

"Nor was he better than Fletcher, Brown, Morrison or McArthur in midfield between 2014-17. Nor was he better than Armstrong, Naismith, Maloney, Snodgrass or Ritchie to play behind the striker. He was maybe better than Barry Bannan and Dorrans, but neither of those were exactly regulars, and they equally been at times amongst the best plauers in the Championship"

Mental how desperate people are on this part of the forum to drop their pants for any old crap EPL player. 16 starts for the Fulham team who were relegated in March!!!!!! Get him in the team!!!!!!!

Literally, nobody discussing him here is saying "Get him in the team!!!!!!!" Just others are capable of expressing an opinion beyond "he's just pish".

Simply talking about a player who could've made more of an impact.

btw Barry Bannan garnered way more caps (27) than Cairney, and despite "been at times amongst the best plauers in the Championship" has played for a team that hasn't made the top half of that division in the last seven seasons.

[craigkillie]

Almost all of Bannan's caps for Scotland came out wide and whilst he was playing at a high level. He hasn't played for Scotland since 2017 (ie that "last seven seasons" that you spoke about).

[Jives Miguel]

38 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Literally, nobody discussing him here is saying "Get him in the team!!!!!!!" Just others are capable of expressing an opinion beyond "he's just pish".

Simply talking about a player who could've made more of an impact.

btw Barry Bannan garnered way more caps (27) than Cairney, and despite "been at times amongst the best plauers in the Championship" has played for a team that hasn't made the top half of that division in the last seven seasons.

 

Barry Bannan has played pretty much the same number of games in the EPL as Cairney has, and played for a better team in all of them, at a younger age. 19 of his caps came between 2010 and 2014, when he was a Premier League player. He was also a youngster at the time with a lot of potential, which probably influenced his game time, and was also able to play in 3 or 4 positions for Scotland in the games he appeared in. Tom Cairney at the time Bannan won most of his caps was a bit-part player for Hull in the Championship. So you could say they were in competition for a place between 2015 and 2018, during which time Bannan won 8 caps and Cairney 2. I could be wrong, but from memory he played from the left/right wing under Strachan, so you could argue they weren't even in direct competition.

 

These players who look like good Championship players but never make the transition to being Scotland regulars are tenapenny. Paul Caddis, Craig Forsyth, Ross McCormack, Kevin McDonald, Don Cowie, Dorrans, Arfield, Rhodes etc etc. Its a pish league.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Jives Miguel

[Pocketman]

Just now, Jives Miguel said:

 

Barry Bannan has played pretty much the same number of games in the EPL as Cairney has, and played for a better team in all of them, at a younger age. 19 of his caps came between 2010 and 2014, when he was a Premier League player. He was also a youngster at the time with a lot of potential, which probably influenced his game time, and was also able to play in 3 or 4 positions for Scotland in the games he appeared in. Tom Cairney at the time Bannan won most of his caps was a bit-part player for Hull in the Championship. So you could say they were in competition for a place between 2015 and 2018, during which time Bannan won 8 caps and Cairney 2. I could be wrong, but from memory he played from the left/right wing under Strachan, so you could argue they weren't even in direct competition.

 

These players who look like good Championship players but never make the transition to being Scotland regulars are tenapenny. Paul Caddis, Craig Forsyth, Ross McCormack, Don Cowie, Dorrans, Arfield, Rhodes etc etc. Its a pish league.

It is not a pish league in the same way that the Scottish Premiership is not a pish league - despite what many will proclaim. They are both leagues of varying standards and thereby the players are of varying standard. I would guess in your view there are 6 "good leagues" in Europe and the rest are pish - I suppose that keeps things simple. 

I always rated Barry Bannan. McCormack and Rhodes were also two players I rated but were let down (in my view) by the Scotland manager(s) at the time. 

[Jives Miguel]

 

3 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

It is not a pish league in the same way that the Scottish Premiership is not a pish league - despite what many will proclaim. They are both leagues of varying standards and thereby the players are of varying standard. I would guess in your view there are 6 "good leagues" in Europe and the rest are pish - I suppose that keeps things simple. 

I always rated Barry Bannan. McCormack and Rhodes were also two players I rated but were let down (in my view) by the Scotland manager(s) at the time. 

 

 

Pish league is obviously hyperbole, but its certainly overrated. Doing well in it is never a guarantee that you're going to do likewise for Scotland as numerous examples over the years have shown.

[Gordon EF]

There's not one set level that determines how many Scotland caps you're going to get, for players in different positions. A 'good championship / crap premier league' player is probably good enough to get a game for Scotland now if they're a centre forward or centre half. It won't be good enough if they're a centre mid or full back.

Even when we were relatively pish, centre mid was usually a position of relative strength for us. Even if you take away questions about his desire or commitment to play for Scotland, it's hardly surprising that a player like Cairney hasn't racked up the caps, given the options we've had in his position.

[Pocketman]

1 minute ago, Jives Miguel said:

 

 

 

Pish league is obviously hyperbole, but its certainly overrated. Doing well in it is never a guarantee that you're going to do likewise for Scotland as numerous examples over the years have shown.

so basically the same for every Scottish eligible player in any league in the world.  

[2426255]

[Jives Miguel]

 

10 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

so basically the same for every Scottish eligible player in any league in the world.  

Erm.... no not really. Someone playing well in the EPL or La Liga is almost certain to do likewise for Scotland given the chance. Someone playing well for Falkirk is almost certain to have zero impact for Scotland. 

 

What a silly post RocketMan!

[Pocketman]

23 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

 

Erm.... no not really. Someone playing well in the EPL or La Liga is almost certain to do likewise for Scotland given the chance. Someone playing well for Falkirk is almost certain to have zero impact for Scotland. 

 

What a silly post RocketMan!

Cairney plays regularly (33 games last season, 8 this season) and thus playing well in the Premier League - to bring this full circle! Ha honestly....

 

[Jives Miguel]

8 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

Cairney plays regularly (33 games last season, 8 this season) and thus playing well in the Premier League - to bring this full circle! Ha honestly....

 

 

18 starts in 4 years and does not meet the threshold of either "regularly" or "well", RocketMan.

 

Thank you.

[2426255]

Where should I begin?

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, KingRocketman II said:

It is not a pish league in the same way that the Scottish Premiership is not a pish league - despite what many will proclaim. They are both leagues of varying standards and thereby the players are of varying standard. I would guess in your view there are 6 "good leagues" in Europe and the rest are pish - I suppose that keeps things simple. 

I always rated Barry Bannan. McCormack and Rhodes were also two players I rated but were let down (in my view) by the Scotland manager(s) at the time. 

McCormack was most likely let down by McCormack, as his later career showed. Rhodes has not been able to step up to a higher level technically at either club or international level.

[Lurkst]

I'm glad we're getting back to the days when being a reasonable English top flight player didn't guarantee you a game for Scotland. There used to be dozens of such men.

 

[Skyline Drifter]

17 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

I always rated Barry Bannan. McCormack and Rhodes were also two players I rated but were let down (in my view) by the Scotland manager(s) at the time. 

Neither McCormack nor Rhodes were ever international class really. They were tried and found wanting. Fringe players at best. McCormack was notoriously unprofessional at times too. 

Bannon at his best in his Villa days was better than them and semi regular for a period but he was simply phased out as we got better.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

6 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Neither McCormack nor Rhodes were ever international class really. They were tried and found wanting. Fringe players at best. McCormack was notoriously unprofessional at times too. 

Bannon at his best in his Villa days was better than them and semi regular for a period but he was simply phased out as we got better.

Agreed.  Same with Mackhail-Smith, and Chris Martin.  There are a few midfielders in the bracket as well.

The Championship is an odd league - stats and appearances can make some players look like superstars, but then can't make the step up to the Premier League and/or international football.  I suppose it should hardly be surprising when you have Toney/Mitrovic/H.Barnes playing at times when they really shouldn't be, placed alongside goalscorers and playmakers from Rotherham and Huddersfield.

Obviously some players can have reasonable stats, and still do very well at international level - Dykes, Adams, Kieffer Moore etc - but it's notoriously hard to identify who is a big fish in a small pond, and who is just using at a stepping stone to better things.

I - for one - am only just too happy that we don't have to trawl the Championship for players any longer.  Those that we do call up, are either 'temporarily' competing, or proven at a higher level (or in Dykes' case, simply has attributes that transfer well to the type of game we play).

[Dunning1874]

He was actually in Clarke's first squad, but he's simply been phased out over time by better players. Ryan Jack was injured for that first squad under Clarke while Billy Gilmour, Lewis Ferguson and David Turnbull have all emerged to receive their first caps since.

He was often at a level where he wouldn't be miles off a call up in the event of injuries but clearly wasn't near the level of our best options at any time. When he was younger he was nowhere near as good as Fletcher, Brown, McArthur or Morrison, then he got his couple of caps in a transitional phase as those players retired and McLeish gave players a chance. He then fell down the pecking order as it became clear that he wasn't close to being as good as others who received their first caps at a similar time like McGregor, McGinn, McTominay, Jack & McLean either while those players established themselves as regulars.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Agreed.  Same with Mackhail-Smith, and Chris Martin.  There are a few midfielders in the bracket as well.

The Championship is an odd league - stats and appearances can make some players look like superstars, but then can't make the step up to the Premier League and/or international football.  I suppose it should hardly be surprising when you have Toney/Mitrovic/H.Barnes playing at times when they really shouldn't be, placed alongside goalscorers and playmakers from Rotherham and Huddersfield.

Obviously some players can have reasonable stats, and still do very well at international level - Dykes, Adams, Kieffer Moore etc - but it's notoriously hard to identify who is a big fish in a small pond, and who is just using at a stepping stone to better things.

I - for one - am only just too happy that we don't have to trawl the Championship for players any longer.  Those that we do call up, are either 'temporarily' competing, or proven at a higher level (or in Dykes' case, simply has attributes that transfer well to the type of game we play).

Yep this.

Not particularly in an international context (though he was unlucky to have been at his peak when Levein was in charge and didn't favour creative players) but Stephen Dobbie for example did extremely well in the Championship. He got promoted with Blackpool (2010), Swansea City (2011) and Crystal Palace (2013). He was also a losing finalist in the Playoff Final with Blackpool (2012) in the year in between but he never quite cut it at Premiership level and played only a handful of games there for Swansea and Palace. We'll never know how he'd have got on internationally but despite being a massive Dobbie fanboy, I suspect he'd have been the same yard short of pace for it that he was in the Premiership. In their time together with us Dobbie and Dykes were an outstanding partnership but there's little doubt who was the star of the show, culminating in Dobbie getting 43 goals in a season in 18/19 (and he missed two months injured!) whilst Dykes scored 10 that season. However, Dykes was the one capable of taking what he did to a higher level and still doing it. That's not just about their respective ages either, it's about how transferrable those skills were to a better level of opposition. Dykes has gone down to QPR and done relatively well in a mostly struggling side. His record in the Championship isn't as good as Dobbie's. It's probably not as good as Rhodes or Chris Martin's either, or Oli McBurnie, but he brings something to the Scotland party that works within the context of how we play.

Cairney hasn't at his best shone quite enough and also occupies an area of the park that we've not been short of quality in. It's not a new thing. In the late 70's and early 80's John McGovern won everything there was to win with Nottingham Forest including lifting the European Cup twice and never got a cap!

Edited November 30, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[BB_Bino]

On 29/11/2023 at 10:05, ArabFC said:

btw Barry Bannan garnered way more caps (27) than Cairney, and despite "been at times amongst the best plauers in the Championship" has played for a team that hasn't made the top half of that division in the last seven seasons.

 

On 29/11/2023 at 10:41, craigkillie said:

Almost all of Bannan's caps for Scotland came out wide and whilst he was playing at a high level. He hasn't played for Scotland since 2017 (ie that "last seven seasons" that you spoke about).

I know it's off topic, but I used to love watching Bannan play. There was just something about the style of player he was for us that I just loved to watch. He did fizzle out and his loyalty to Sheffield Wednesday, whilst a big crop of better Midfielders came through the ranks, didn't help him.

[The Algebraist]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

His record in the Championship isn't as good as Dobbie's. It's probably not as good as Rhodes or Chris Martin's either, or Oli McBurnie, but he brings something to the Scotland party that works within the context of how we play.

I think this is your most important point.

With players like this, all of whom probably could have done a job and in a few cases did, I think we often ask the wrong question. Rather than "why isn't so and so getting picked?" we should be asking "what could so and so add and is it worth it?" SSC seems to have a high bar in terms of value added and I'm in favour of that. 

You can use this formula to explain a few absences.

Eg. Q. Why isn't Gauld getting picked? A. I know, he is better than Armstrong vs Q. What can Gauld really add and is it worth it? A. I'm not sure, he seems to be a similar player to Armstrong and Turnbull, his schedule doesn't really work with ours and the MLS is a bit of a unknown quantity. Seems a risk and I'm not sure it's worth it.

Edited November 30, 2023 by The Algebraist