The Strange Case of Tom Cairney

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yep this.

Not particularly in an international context (though he was unlucky to have been at his peak when Levein was in charge and didn't favour creative players) but Stephen Dobbie for example did extremely well in the Championship. He got promoted with Blackpool (2010), Swansea City (2011) and Crystal Palace (2013). He was also a losing finalist in the Playoff Final with Blackpool (2012) in the year in between but he never quite cut it at Premiership level and played only a handful of games there for Swansea and Palace. We'll never know how he'd have got on internationally but despite being a massive Dobbie fanboy, I suspect he'd have been the same yard short of pace for it that he was in the Premiership. In their time together with us Dobbie and Dykes were an outstanding partnership but there's little doubt who was the star of the show, culminating in Dobbie getting 43 goals in a season in 18/19 (and he missed two months injured!) whilst Dykes scored 10 that season. However, Dykes was the one capable of taking what he did to a higher level and still doing it. That's not just about their respective ages either, it's about how transferrable those skills were to a better level of opposition. Dykes has gone down to QPR and done relatively well in a mostly struggling side. His record in the Championship isn't as good as Dobbie's. It's probably not as good as Rhodes or Chris Martin's either, or Oli McBurnie, but he brings something to the Scotland party that works within the context of how we play.

Cairney hasn't at his best shone quite enough and also occupies an area of the park that we've not been short of quality in. It's not a new thing. In the late 70's and early 80's John McGovern won everything there was to win with Nottingham Forest including lifting the European Cup twice and never got a cap!

John McGovern was never given an opportunity, for whatever reason !

[Skyline Drifter]

6 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

John McGovern was never given an opportunity, for whatever reason !

I was relatively young at the time but McGovern was an under-appreciated player wherever he went to be honest, and yet teams he was in did better than those he wasn't in. Clough saw this and took him to 4 different clubs with him. He wasn't showy, he rarely scored a goal, and wasn't a tough tackler like say Bremner. He just kept the ball and kept it moving, closest perhaps to Billy Gilmour in current context. He won the English League with two different provincial teams and would likely have lifted the European Cup with the same two sides if Derby hadn't been cheated out of the  1973 semi final at Juventus.

At the time there was a bit of bias against players playing down South, especially those who like McGovern had played their entire career down there, rather than coming to prominence in Scotland first, but that didn't stop the likes of Graeme Souness, Bruce Rioch and Don Masson getting international honours. He clearly just wasn't fancied by McLeod and Stein.

[Pocketman]

2 hours ago, BB_Bino said:

 

I know it's off topic, but I used to love watching Bannan play. There was just something about the style of player he was for us that I just loved to watch. He did fizzle out and his loyalty to Sheffield Wednesday, whilst a big crop of better Midfielders came through the ranks, didn't help him.

I think this might have been Bannan's debut but if memory serves me correctly, he was a real stand out. Like you, I loved his style of play along with that diminutive stature. I did hear him interact with other players via an SFA promotional clip and that subsequently put me off him ha - but fortunately this was at a time his call-ups were winding down....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/14805494

 

ETA: wonder how many the current team would put past that team under Levein from 2011:

Scotland: Allan McGregor, Steven Whittaker, Phil Bardsley (Stephen Crainey, 70), Christophe Berra, Gary Caldwell, Don Cowie, Darren Fletcher, Barry Bannan (Robert Snodgrass, 84), David Goodwillie, James Morrison (Graham Dorrans, 79), Steven Naismith.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by KingRocketman II
team

[Skyline Drifter]

10 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

ETA: wonder how many the current team would put past that team under Levein from 2011:

Scotland: Allan McGregor, Steven Whittaker, Phil Bardsley (Stephen Crainey, 70), Christophe Berra, Gary Caldwell, Don Cowie, Darren Fletcher, Barry Bannan (Robert Snodgrass, 84), David Goodwillie, James Morrison (Graham Dorrans, 79), Steven Naismith.

How many of that team from 12 years ago would get in the current side if everyone was fit and at their best?

Two, maybe. Allan McGregor at his best was a better keeper than Angus Gunn is (although Craig Gordon pre-leg break was better than McGregor). Darren Fletcher was a top class player. He probably gets in our current midfield ahead of one of McGregor / Gilmour / McTominay.

I'm not actually sure anyone else in that side above even gets in our current squad. James Morrison is comparable to Armstrong and Christie, he's not obviously better. Naismith maybe ahead of Shankland / Brown. None of the rest.

[Self-raising Lazarus]

1 hour ago, KingRocketman II said:

I think this might have been Bannan's debut but if memory serves me correctly, he was a real stand out. Like you, I loved his style of play along with that diminutive stature. I did hear him interact with other players via an SFA promotional clip and that subsequently put me off him ha - but fortunately this was at a time his call-ups were winding down....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/14805494

 

ETA: wonder how many the current team would put past that team under Levein from 2011:

Scotland: Allan McGregor, Steven Whittaker, Phil Bardsley (Stephen Crainey, 70), Christophe Berra, Gary Caldwell, Don Cowie, Darren Fletcher, Barry Bannan (Robert Snodgrass, 84), David Goodwillie, James Morrison (Graham Dorrans, 79), Steven Naismith.

 

 

Still have nightmares about Phil Bardsley playing left back without possessing a left foot.

[Self-raising Lazarus]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

How many of that team from 12 years ago would get in the current side if everyone was fit and at their best?

Two, maybe. Allan McGregor at his best was a better keeper than Angus Gunn is (although Craig Gordon pre-leg break was better than McGregor). Darren Fletcher was a top class player. He probably gets in our current midfield ahead of one of McGregor / Gilmour / McTominay.

I'm not actually sure anyone else in that side above even gets in our current squad. James Morrison is comparable to Armstrong and Christie, he's not obviously better. Naismith maybe ahead of Shankland / Brown. None of the rest.

Naismith was a great striker, when he was in the Premier league scoring goals he'd definitely be first choice up top, really intelligent player too 

[velo army]

McLeod didn't realise McGovern was Scottish, which is wild, but why he was overlooked.

[Skyline Drifter]

18 minutes ago, Self-raising Lazarus said:

Naismith was a great striker, when he was in the Premier league scoring goals he'd definitely be first choice up top, really intelligent player too 

I don't agree with this. I accept he'd be ahead of Shankland and Brown for 3rd striker. He may even be in the mix with Dykes and Adams to start. I don't think he'd "definitely be 1st choice". His hold up play would I suspect not be as good and I doubt he was quite as mobile either? Bigger goal threat maybe but that's not what our forwards are necessarily picked for.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, velo army said:

McLeod didn't realise McGovern was Scottish, which is wild, but why he was overlooked.

I'm not having that. He may not have realised initially but there was plenty of coverage of the Scottish army at Forest and a fair bit of press coverage about the potential of Forest having 4 players in the 1978 World Cup squad (Robertson, Gemmill and Burns all DID go).

[Ewanandmoreagain]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I was relatively young at the time but McGovern was an under-appreciated player wherever he went to be honest, and yet teams he was in did better than those he wasn't in. Clough saw this and took him to 4 different clubs with him. He wasn't showy, he rarely scored a goal, and wasn't a tough tackler like say Bremner. He just kept the ball and kept it moving, closest perhaps to Billy Gilmour in current context. He won the English League with two different provincial teams and would likely have lifted the European Cup with the same two sides if Derby hadn't been cheated out of the  1973 semi final at Juventus.

At the time there was a bit of bias against players playing down South, especially those who like McGovern had played their entire career down there, rather than coming to prominence in Scotland first, but that didn't stop the likes of Graeme Souness, Bruce Rioch and Don Masson getting international honours. He clearly just wasn't fancied by McLeod and Stein.

John McGovern was quoted as saying he was just as quick as Butch Wilkins

2 hours ago, Self-raising Lazarus said:

Still have nightmares about Phil Bardsley playing left back without possessing a left foot.

I thought he did o.k.

It was not just him though at the time. Steven Whittaker was also right footed at left full back.

and going back  many of our left F.B. s have been primarily right footed.

So thank goodness for Andy and Kieran 

 

 

2 hours ago, velo army said:

McLeod didn't realise McGovern was Scottish, which is wild, but why he was overlooked.

I have read that as well .

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I'm not having that. He may not have realised initially but there was plenty of coverage of the Scottish army at Forest and a fair bit of press coverage about the potential of Forest having 4 players in the 1978 World Cup squad (Robertson, Gemmill and Burns all DID go).

Not worth him bothering about newspaper talk ?

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

I have read that as well .

Not worth him bothering about newspaper talk ?

Are we seriously suggesting none of his THREE teammates who were in the Scotland squad ever mentioned it? Or it wasnt put to him when he presumably occasionally wemt to watch Robertson, Gemmill and Burns? 

I got to know Ally McLeod a little in his time at QoS. He wasnt a stupid man. Granted it wasnt an era of internet information and agents pushing their players forward but I refuse to accept McLeod wasnt aware of McGovern's nationality very quickly even if he didnt know the day he took the job. Or that Jock Stein after him didnt know either.

To be fair to McLeod as much as McGovern had played for Derby in winning the title in 1973 (where he played alongside another Scotland regular in Dave McKay incidentally), he did drop into the 2nd division with Forest in 76. Forest's astonishing feat of winning the title 12 months after being promoted in 3rd (equivalent to Luton winning it this year) potentially came too late to disrupt the incumbents who were on their way to qualifying Scotland already. Though it didnt come too late for Burns, Gemmill and Robertson right enough! However as Burns and Gemmill faded out again internationally, McGovern was still anchoring the Forest midfield to greater glory and Stein continued to ignore him.

Imagine a situation where the Champions League winning captain for two successive years couldnt get a cap for Scotland now!

[Salvo Montalbano]

13 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Are we seriously suggesting none of his THREE teammates who were in the Scotland squad ever mentioned it? Or it wasnt put to him when he presumably occasionally wemt to watch Robertson, Gemmill and Burns? 

The often quoted story is that McLeod did go to watch Forest and after the match a local reporter asked which of their Scottish players had impressed him enough to be in the next squad. He replied "All of them!" but then when the letters from the SFA came to the City Ground, McGovern didn't have one. The Forest players were said to have asked McLeod who then admitted to them that he didn't realise he was Scottish. May be apocryphal of course.

[Shannon]

Cairney seems to be doing very well in a Fulham team full of confidence winning 5-0 in their last two games. Would like to see him in the friendlies before Euros to see if worthy of a squad place if not for Euros but in competitive games in next 2-3 years if we have a few injuries in midfield but I am aware his previous performances were very poor for Scotland but seems a different player now? Pity he plays in our strongest position and not in goals or up front!

Edited December 10, 2023 by Shannon

[craigkillie]

He's 33 next month, I don't see why we'd be looking to him in 2-3 years time.

[Gordopolis]

17 hours ago, craigkillie said:

He's 33 next month, I don't see why we'd be looking to him in 2-3 years time.

Pretty clear that @Shannon meant we might look to use him during the next 2-3 years - like a final fling during the next campaign before he hits his mid 30s - not that we should wait that long before using him.

Either way I don't think we should be bothering with him unless he continues his recent good form to the extent where he is outshining the currently and consistently excellent McGinn, Gilmour,  McTominay etc (a very big ask).

 

[Uncle Scan]

On 30/11/2023 at 15:10, Skyline Drifter said:

I was relatively young at the time but McGovern was an under-appreciated player wherever he went to be honest, and yet teams he was in did better than those he wasn't in. Clough saw this and took him to 4 different clubs with him. He wasn't showy, he rarely scored a goal, and wasn't a tough tackler like say Bremner. He just kept the ball and kept it moving, closest perhaps to Billy Gilmour in current context. He won the English League with two different provincial teams and would likely have lifted the European Cup with the same two sides if Derby hadn't been cheated out of the  1973 semi final at Juventus.

At the time there was a bit of bias against players playing down South, especially those who like McGovern had played their entire career down there, rather than coming to prominence in Scotland first, but that didn't stop the likes of Graeme Souness, Bruce Rioch and Don Masson getting international honours. He clearly just wasn't fancied by McLeod and Stein.

Ally MacLeod didn't even know he was Scottish until Clough told him. Clough phoned MacLeod on why his captain wasn't getting selected for squads when the rest of his Scots were

[Shannon]

6 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Pretty clear that @Shannon meant we might look to use him during the next 2-3 years - like a final fling during the next campaign before he hits his mid 30s - not that we should wait that long before using him.

Either way I don't think we should be bothering with him unless he continues his recent good form to the extent where he is outshining the currently and consistently excellent McGinn, Gilmour,  McTominay etc (a very big ask).

 

Yeah I would be thinking he may come into squad in the place of Ryan Jack / Kenny McLean if they or others are either injured or struggling to hit form which is very possible especially for Ryan Jack who seems to be picking up injuries all the time recently. I do realise very short term replacement until we have another midfielder coming through which to be fair we usually do. Not a position to worry about but be interesting if he manages to keep up his form and sneak a squad place ahead of perhaps Ryan Jack due to injury.

[2426255]

34 minutes ago, Shannon said:

Yeah I would be thinking he may come into squad in the place of Ryan Jack / Kenny McLean if they or others are either injured or struggling to hit form which is very possible especially for Ryan Jack who seems to be picking up injuries all the time recently. I do realise very short term replacement until we have another midfielder coming through which to be fair we usually do. Not a position to worry about but be interesting if he manages to keep up his form and sneak a squad place ahead of perhaps Ryan Jack due to injury.

I don't think Cairney will get in ahead of any of our current midfielders. It's a stable area. In 3 years only three other midfielders have been selected for a squad. That said, if he's still playing well and we pick up and injury or two in that area he could be considered along with one or two others.

Spoiler

 

[Skyline Drifter]

12 hours ago, Uncle Scan said:

Ally MacLeod didn't even know he was Scottish until Clough told him. Clough phoned MacLeod on why his captain wasn't getting selected for squads when the rest of his Scots were

We've covered this point though. Even if that's true (and I've no reason to doubt it), it's clear McLeod, and subsequently Stein, knew fine well he was Scottish for most of their time in charge. They still didn't pick him. McLeod left the job in 1978. McGovern lifted the European Cup in 1979 and 1980, albeit he left Forest at the end of the 81/82 season to become player manager at Bolton so he was too old and out of the picture to be a candidate for Stein to take to Spain in 82.

McLeod took over Scotland in May 1977 and was picking three Forest players pretty soon after. There's about a 4 year window where McGovern was at the top of the game, known to be Scottish and still not picked.

[Frankie S]

17 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Pretty clear that @Shannon meant we might look to use him during the next 2-3 years - like a final fling during the next campaign before he hits his mid 30s - not that we should wait that long before using him.

Either way I don't think we should be bothering with him unless he continues his recent good form to the extent where he is outshining the currently and consistently excellent McGinn, Gilmour,  McTominay etc (a very big ask).

 

He’s clearly not an upgrade on McGinn, Gilmour or McTominay, and no shame in that as they’re three exceptional players. That’s not in dispute. Does he deserve do be part of the conversation, alongside the likes of Christie, McLean and Jack? Absolutely.