Do the SFA believe that grassroots football ends with Under 20 Development football?

[Poor first touch]

In Ayrshire the WoSFL development teams are having a negative effect in getting youngsters into amateur football.  Historically Ayrshire youth football (with a few exceptions) stopped at Under 18 and then more recently 19 level but we now have Under 20 development teams in towns like Auchinleck, Girvan, Ardrossan, Dalry and Maybole. All of these towns no longer have amateur teams.  Add in other 20s teams from Kilwinning, Irvine, Stevenston (Ardeer started a team at the start of last season who have since folded), Ayr (Whitletts), Kilmarnock (Bonnyton), Cumnock, Troon and Darvel and there are a significant number of boys who previously would have found a game in a competitive amateur league now playing on a Friday night. 

Now, with a reduction in the number of amateur teams these lads, should they want to, are limited in places to play when they turn 20.  You also have to throw in the fact that they get into the habit of a Friday night out and Saturday afternoon off. 

The amateur associations need to push hard for dual contracts that will allow these senior teams to, rather than field teams in under 20 youth football, have loan players in the amateur leagues (particularly relevant for teams in the lower divisions of WOSFL).  As well as hopefully having people to run amateur teams - the lure of coaching at Saturday amateur level doesn’t appear to be as appealing as wearing an ex junior team tracksuit on a Friday night -  it will also get boys into the amateur leagues at 19 and used to playing at a competitive and more realistic level.  Currently boys play development football and chase a dream of playing senior football at 19/20/21 - which statistics prove ends in disappointment for many.  The majority of these lads no longer eligible to play development football could ultimately be lost to playing the game.  A link between senior clubs with the amateur leagues however, still gives young lads hope that if their ability matches their ambitions they could one day step up rather than the current model which requires 19 and 20 year old lads to make a (perceived) step down. 

As well as the camaraderie of playing in team football into their 20s, 30s and in some cases their 40s, amateur football has so much to offer a lot of these lads. There is much more opportunity for them to be competitive at this level than in the lower levels of the WOSFL, EOSFL, etc.

The amateur level offers those that excel the opportunity to;

• Represent Scotland in UEFA Regions cup
• Play at Hampden in a national final
• to compete in local leagues and cups

Would a specific/limited number of season long loans between senior and amateur clubs, in lieu of development squads for the WoSFL clubs work?   We need to do something as established amateur clubs are folding on a weekly basis.  If Friday night development team committee, managers, coaches and players were introduced into Saturday afternoon football it might have a chance

Although I accept that there are other reasons why amateur clubs fold, the impact from 20 year old ex-senior players not seeing the step down to amateur level as a viable option increases the risk of them being lost to Parkhead, Ibrox or Wetherspoons on a Saturday afternoon when their development years are behind them.

It has always been widely noted that the Scottish Amateur Cup is the biggest participation sporting event in Scotland. We need to protect this before it loses it’s appeal and gradually disappears.  The SFA, WoSFL, SAFA and all other associations - at all levels - need to start working together if REAL grassroots football is to be protected.

[eyeswideopen15]

You have alot of top class points here. Something needs to change and soon. Amateur football is dying. Ayrshire Amateur football is clinging on for dear life. This was suppose to be one of the most competitive Premier leagues in years. Now they have already lost a big name in Tarbolton and a couple other teams playing a team full of 16 year old boys, just to fulfil fixtures.  All while scored of other young adults watch on coz they played under 20s the night before. 

 

Dual contracts are an absolute must, however, that may also force Amateur teams to almost fall un under the umbrella of wosfl teams. Leaving the ones that dont/can't to die

[Spyro]

This is all on the SAFA. What have they done in the last 20-40 years to modernise or improve the amateur setup in this country. They continously play the same old record season after season while everyone has tried to tell them is it broken and needs updated.

The WoSL needed to improve the system for their 18-21 year old themselves, as in the past these boys should be playing in competitive amateur football but are being let down by a stale and stagnant system. As for the player registration system, that's just an utter bombscare that no one in any of the associations seem interested in fixing. 

Basically too many people in nice wee jobs they are too comfortable in and are terrified to change anything because they will be out their depth

[eyeswideopen15]

19 minutes ago, Spyro said:

This is all on the SAFA. What have they done in the last 20-40 years to modernise or improve the amateur setup in this country. They continously play the same old record season after season while everyone has tried to tell them is it broken and needs updated.

The WoSL needed to improve the system for their 18-21 year old themselves, as in the past these boys should be playing in competitive amateur football but are being let down by a stale and stagnant system. As for the player registration system, that's just an utter bombscare that no one in any of the associations seem interested in fixing. 

Basically too many people in nice wee jobs they are too comfortable in and are terrified to change anything because they will be out their depth

Really really hard to argue with any of this. Iv no idea how the running of the game go, so fsor play to them for putting themselves up there, but this issue has been going on for years as you say so surely someone somewhere at sfa safa or local associations level has brought this up and STILL zero changed.

[Spyro]

2 hours ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

Really really hard to argue with any of this. Iv no idea how the running of the game go, so fsor play to them for putting themselves up there, but this issue has been going on for years as you say so surely someone somewhere at sfa safa or local associations level has brought this up and STILL zero changed.

I have total respect and admire the people at local level who struggle through season after season keeping the game alive in their communities. Unfortunately they have had ZERO help from above and can only piss with the hose they're given. 

Local leagues and clubs need to stand up and take control away from hampden before there is no amatuer game left to fight for 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Spyro

[Gazzah]

Great original post and one I have battered on about since the introduction of this sham 20s league. By the age of 19/20 they should have a year or two at amateur under the belt to progress into men’s football properly. It’s a easy one for the so called senior teams though fills their bench on a Saturday without having to spend money.

[GNU_Linux]

In lieu of a WOSFL development league what does everyone propose the league should've done?

[Poor first touch]

Just a suggestion but.......

As things stand just now a senior club would have to release a young player to play in amateur football, should they want to introduce him to playing against adults.  After he is released the senior club loses any control over that player returning to them should they excel at amateur level. That player would then be free to move to a senior rival in the future with the senior club losing the opportunity for a development fee.  A loan system would prevent this.

Let Senior clubs have a prerequisite number (say eight) Under 21 players contracted to them on amateur forms.  Those players can be kept on the books of the senior (parent) club but loaned out to amateur teams for a season.  While loaned out they cannot play for their parent club in competitive games but they should be allowed to play for them in friendlies.

A parent club who has an 18/19/20 year old player who they want to keep an eye on but don't believe to be ready for senior football - at that moment in time - have a way of introducing him to adult football. Should the player 'develop' to the required standard, his parent club can recall him and promote him into their first team the following season .  If after a season in amateur they are not deemed to be good enough to step up to senior level, there is no harm done with the lad able to continue playing football in a competitive environment that suits his ability.  The amateur level also gets enhanced with the short term introduction of players with bright futures destined for a higher level.

The coaches who currently run Under 20 teams should also be encouraged to get involved at amateur level.  Again this is an opportunity for young managers to get blooded into football management at a competitive level, dealing with adults and not just youth footballers.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Poor first touch

[oldandround]

Im not too sure that the reduction of amateur football is down to the actions of any governing body.    That's just blame game stuff.

For many's a decade there was a extremely thriving u21s league all over the country.  

Lads played u21 and then moved into junior or amateur football.  I think its not the case that 19/20 year olds played much amateur football.  a few did of course, not not the majority.  they played u21!

In the east there never was dual registration between u21 and junior.  that was a west thing.  never made any difference.  Still loads of u21 teams.

The u21 leagues died out in the east before the dev u20s even started.  primarily due to changing priorities.  less boys wanted to play football.  Mostly, I reckon due to either the need to work, or (I accept this one is controversial) the rise of drug culture.   

With the launch of u20's there is now a direct link from youth to senior clubs.  This is massively to the detriment of amateur football.  To suggest that semi pro's link up with amateur teams is fanciful.  The semi pro teams dont give a shit.    They would rather have 30 players registered with them, than 5 leave and play ams.  In any case, its extremely unlikely the players would go.  They like having the tracksuit....

Another issue is that the lads at u20's see themselves as pro's.  So when they age out, they expect to find a wosfl/eosfl team no bother.  Some do, especially as these semi pro teams are affected by the very same issues as ams do in finding players.  Thus, any lads who is fit and reasonably decent, will find a club to allow him to sit on their bench.

The rest are encumbered with delusions of grandeur.    They see amateur football as beneath them, so they decide to "take a year out" and never actually return as work, women and life get in the way.  

Then the lure of sunday morning football grabs them and they play there.

Those few who do want to play on a saturday, join the increasingly small number of saturday amateur teams left and make a go of it.

We are currently at a point of massive change in the grassroots game in scotland.  It will settle as the u20s and increasingly professional nature of wosfl/eosfl kicks in.  But that will take at least a decade.

Its just that at the moment, it all looks very bleak.  

It will never return to the halcyon days of old, but there will be amateur football forever.  What shape it takes is uncertain.

Personally, I think that sunday morning football is where the growth is.  LEAFA in the East is already chock full on a sunday and has not entertained any new applications for 2 years for sunday morning teams and will not again this summer.    This is down to lack of refs, not interest!

I do think having multiple organisations in the west is silly though.    Each area should just have the one league body.  That is where the associations can help out the teams.

Amalgamate.  Leafa / borders in the east.  Stirling in the central area.  Greater Glasgow and ayrshire leagues in the west.  All with saturday and sunday sections.

League names can be whatever you want them to be (should there be a desire to retain the cally name eg). Everyone needs to swallow their pride and combine.  just too many separate leagues now. 

[Spyro]

3 hours ago, oldandround said:

Im not too sure that the reduction of amateur football is down to the actions of any governing body.    That's just blame game stuff.

For many's a decade there was a extremely thriving u21s league all over the country.  

Lads played u21 and then moved into junior or amateur football.  I think its not the case that 19/20 year olds played much amateur football.  a few did of course, not not the majority.  they played u21!

In the east there never was dual registration between u21 and junior.  that was a west thing.  never made any difference.  Still loads of u21 teams.

The u21 leagues died out in the east before the dev u20s even started.  primarily due to changing priorities.  less boys wanted to play football.  Mostly, I reckon due to either the need to work, or (I accept this one is controversial) the rise of drug culture.   

With the launch of u20's there is now a direct link from youth to senior clubs.  This is massively to the detriment of amateur football.  To suggest that semi pro's link up with amateur teams is fanciful.  The semi pro teams dont give a shit.    They would rather have 30 players registered with them, than 5 leave and play ams.  In any case, its extremely unlikely the players would go.  They like having the tracksuit....

Another issue is that the lads at u20's see themselves as pro's.  So when they age out, they expect to find a wosfl/eosfl team no bother.  Some do, especially as these semi pro teams are affected by the very same issues as ams do in finding players.  Thus, any lads who is fit and reasonably decent, will find a club to allow him to sit on their bench.

The rest are encumbered with delusions of grandeur.    They see amateur football as beneath them, so they decide to "take a year out" and never actually return as work, women and life get in the way.  

Then the lure of sunday morning football grabs them and they play there.

Those few who do want to play on a saturday, join the increasingly small number of saturday amateur teams left and make a go of it.

We are currently at a point of massive change in the grassroots game in scotland.  It will settle as the u20s and increasingly professional nature of wosfl/eosfl kicks in.  But that will take at least a decade.

Its just that at the moment, it all looks very bleak.  

It will never return to the halcyon days of old, but there will be amateur football forever.  What shape it takes is uncertain.

Personally, I think that sunday morning football is where the growth is.  LEAFA in the East is already chock full on a sunday and has not entertained any new applications for 2 years for sunday morning teams and will not again this summer.    This is down to lack of refs, not interest!

I do think having multiple organisations in the west is silly though.    Each area should just have the one league body.  That is where the associations can help out the teams.

Amalgamate.  Leafa / borders in the east.  Stirling in the central area.  Greater Glasgow and ayrshire leagues in the west.  All with saturday and sunday sections.

League names can be whatever you want them to be (should there be a desire to retain the cally name eg). Everyone needs to swallow their pride and combine.  just too many separate leagues now. 

While we might disagree on the actions/inactions of the governing bodies, you have absolutely nailed it there.

Although in my previous posts, I centred on the SAFA and the structure of the leagues, my BIGGEST concern in amateur football has always been REFS and PITCHES.

Whether it’s lobbying from the SAFA to the SFA or leagues taking matters into their own hand by creating a much better environment for referees. The lack of respect from all directions towards referees is shocking and it’s little wonder there is a shortage. Although it sits squarely at the SFA’s door, it’s not the SFA’s problem as long as their pro games aren’t being affected, we already know they don’t care about the amateur game. Which is even more reason for the SAFA to grow a pair and start standing up for itself.

As for pitches... No summer football, council pitches closed all summer, a labyrinth of a booking system, loads of unused parks and facilities rotting away through lack of use, countless postponements over the winter, players sick of playing in a minus 3 windchill, £130 a game (on top ref and other costs) to hire a 4g pitch with lights in the winter, usually miles away… and when you do eventually get a game on, the opposition can’t raise a team or the ref calls off and that money is now going to an expensive training session!

[oldandround]

21 hours ago, Spyro said:

While we might disagree on the actions/inactions of the governing bodies, you have absolutely nailed it there.

Although in my previous posts, I centred on the SAFA and the structure of the leagues, my BIGGEST concern in amateur football has always been REFS and PITCHES.

Whether it’s lobbying from the SAFA to the SFA or leagues taking matters into their own hand by creating a much better environment for referees. The lack of respect from all directions towards referees is shocking and it’s little wonder there is a shortage. Although it sits squarely at the SFA’s door, it’s not the SFA’s problem as long as their pro games aren’t being affected, we already know they don’t care about the amateur game. Which is even more reason for the SAFA to grow a pair and start standing up for itself.

As for pitches... No summer football, council pitches closed all summer, a labyrinth of a booking system, loads of unused parks and facilities rotting away through lack of use, countless postponements over the winter, players sick of playing in a minus 3 windchill, £130 a game (on top ref and other costs) to hire a 4g pitch with lights in the winter, usually miles away… and when you do eventually get a game on, the opposition can’t raise a team or the ref calls off and that money is now going to an expensive training session!

You raise excellent points - here's my take

The refs issue is a strange one.  I actually blame the referee association for this one.  I'll explain, from an east perspective.  Dont know if this is the same in the west!

The East ref association run 2 classes a year (normally) Each of those trains 20 - 40 new refs.  On these courses the trainers are all grade 1, former grade 1 or wannabe grade one refs.  Thus all that matters is creating the next generation of grade 1 refs.  

So, they sell the dream to the young lads.  16-20 year olds are sent up to Hibs / hearts training grounds on a Saturday morning to  ref the 9s in a sanitised arena.  After a couple of games there they might do some u13/u14/u15 academy games.  From there is on to the u20's league for "development" etc.  

If they're not quite ready for u20s, then they end up doing the line at EOSFL games.  These get half fee (£27.50) + expenses (25 a mile) so end up close to the same fee as an amateur game, for much less stress and lets be honest, a bit of glamour for being part of a "real" game.  

Ref trainers even tell new recruits to avoid amateur football and even youth football as not worth it for progression.   Progression is all that matters.  Get your face known.  do the circuit.  Make masonic like connections.  Get up the ladder...... 

If the new ref is 28+ then they are pretty much ignored and told to go their own way.  These refs might, just might try out ams, but wont stay long as they dont have the experience or maybe life skills for it just yet.  So they do the youths for a few years, maybe.  Get scunnered with nippy mums and leave.

So, all thats left at ams is the old guys who have been around for 20+ years.  There is limited new blood coming through. 

The solution is (sorry) higher fees.      Pay the ams refs more that EOSFL/WOSFL and compete for those after the cash   ITs what semi pro clubs do for players after all.  This needs the SAFA to remove the fee ceiling.  Scrap that and allow league to set their own level and allow the market to settle it.  Guarantee that there will be more and better refs willing to referee amateur if its worth it to them.    Leagues can then cherry pick those they want and "thanks for your service" to the nightmares.

Most leagues and even the SAFA are pretty solvent.  Drop league and SAFA fees to nil for a few years to compensate for the higher ref fees.  THat is something tangible the SAFA can do to help.

Part 2 - pitches.

Councils are utterly and totally skint.  The cost to run a football pitch is not usually covered by the letting fees.  So, they are neglected.  Summer is thus essential to allow them to recover organically as there is no money to actually maintain them.

3G's can cost a million to build and with the cost of lights and jannies etc, can be hard to recoup.   Especially with a max 10 year life and a 350k relay cost.

Not too sure what the answer is to this one, but I'm going to have a punt.  I think that sports scotland should take ownership of all council owned 3g's (this eliminates schools so its got flaws I'll grant you)  and run them from the grant they get from government.  Sport Scotland loves to virtue signal grants and could do so much more to help the real grass roots.

I also think that there should be a 1% levy on all TV contracts for professional football, given directly to this sports body to run grassroots pitches.   (this is actually in place in england, but the FA have so far refused to pay it out!)

Hey, I know its pie in the sky stuff, but I can dream........  

[Poor first touch]

On 31/12/2023 at 08:56, oldandround said:

 

Lads played u21 and then moved into junior or amateur football.  I think its not the case that 19/20 year olds played much amateur football.  a few did of course, not not the majority.  they played u21!

 

Under 21 has never been strong in Ayrshire.   Generally, up until recently, at 18/19 year old if you wanted to continue playing, you played either junior or amateur.

Edited January 8 by Poor first touch