DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, Lalo said: Was raging last night but on reflection thought we played really well, going forward anyway we look excellent at times and its a joy to watch. It is concerning the amount of points we drop from winnning positions though and our defence give me the fear half the time. Having a player like Shankland in close games like that is the difference unfortunately, very good striker. What an absolute minter the "Hearts are falling apart again" song is btw A song created by hearts fans for hibs. Usually used when they are going through a poor run of form. If you want to steal it fair doo but Not one to be sung at a team closer to the title race than 4th we couldn’t stop laughing at the stupidity 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalo Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, DaveMackay56 said: A song created by hearts fans for hibs. Usually used when they are going through a poor run of form. If you want to steal it fair doo but Not one to be sung at a team closer to the title race than 4th we couldn’t stop laughing at the stupidity Who said I want to steal it?? I am saying it is a howler of a song and it was embarrassing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, johnnydun said: Yes it is @DaveMackay86 It is an offence if a player: deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised scores in the opponents' goal: directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental Yes of course if a player deliberately handles of course it’s a penalty. but it’s also a penalty if it’s an accident. Not being deliberate doesn’t mean it’s NOT a pen as highlighted by your bullets You’ve proved my point mate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, johnnydun said: Yes it is @DaveMackay86 It is an offence if a player: deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised scores in the opponents' goal: directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental In my Honourable Friend's defence, he's said it doesn't need to be deliberate, and you've corrected him by posting the law which shows it doesn't need to be deliberate. Deliberate handball is only one of the offences. Dave is quite correct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, Lalo said: Who said I want to steal it?? I am saying it is a howler of a song and it was embarrassing cool. Maybe I misread. It’s a good song. But timing is everything 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 8 minutes ago, DaveMackay56 said: it doesn’t need to be deliberate, that’s not in the rules. His arm was outstretched, the ball was on target and there was a good chance it was going in and the player was in the process of turning his back. There is zero chance it would have been overturned. I appreciate it doesn’t need to be deliberate, but the only other criteria* for it to be a handball is if they were making their body unnaturally bigger. It needs to be either of those for it to be deemed handball and I don’t think it meets either criteria. * I am discounting the handball that leads directly to a goal rule here as it is not applicable 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empty It Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 The handball law is a shambles but its a stonewall penalty according to the law, he clearly makes himself bigger preventing the ball going goalwards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 1 minute ago, Empty It said: The handball law is a shambles but its a stonewall penalty according to the law, he clearly makes himself bigger preventing the ball going goalwards. It’s not unnaturally bigger though. It needs to be unnaturally bigger, not just bigger. His arm was in a perfectly acceptable position when swivelling his body to try and block a shot. It shouldn’t have been a penalty, even with the shambles law we have, IMO. Edited February 4 by AJF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empty It Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, AJF said: It’s not unnaturally bigger though. It needs to be unnaturally bigger, not just bigger. His arm was in a perfectly acceptable position when swivelling his body to try and block a shot. It shouldn’t have been a penalty, even with the shambles law we have, IMO. Then you could argue about 90% of the handball penalties given. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 minutes ago, DaveMackay56 said: Yes of course if a player deliberately handles of course it’s a penalty. but it’s also a penalty if it’s an accident. Not being deliberate doesn’t mean it’s NOT a pen as highlighted by your bullets You’ve proved my point mate. 3 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: In my Honourable Friend's defence, he's said it doesn't need to be deliberate, and you've corrected him by posting the law which shows it doesn't need to be deliberate. Deliberate handball is only one of the offences. Dave is quite correct. However the original quote was... 13 minutes ago, DaveMackay56 said: it doesn’t need to be deliberate, that’s not in the rules. When, quite clearly it is in the rules. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, AJF said: It’s not unnaturally bigger though. It needs to be unnaturally bigger, not just bigger. His arm was in a perfectly acceptable position when swivelling his body to try and block a shot. It shouldn’t have been a penalty, even with the shambles law we have, IMO. There have been countless pens for far less. Why was he swivelling btw? To make himself bigger by any chance? If you watch EPL they constantly say when this happens that turning you back on the ball is the worst thing you can do, and is used to justify pens not to argue against. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, Empty It said: Then you could argue about 90% of the handball penalties given. Precisely, which is why we have the issues we currently do. More emphasis needs to be placed on the deliberate action in the law, IMO. I just can’t agree that the Dundee defender has made himself unnaturally bigger, but appreciate it’s subjective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 2 minutes ago, johnnydun said: However the original quote was... When, quite clearly it is in the rules. No. The rules do not state that it needs to be deliberate. Not sure what you're struggling with here. " it doesn’t need to be deliberate, that’s not in the rules. " is an entirely correct statement. Edited February 4 by VincentGuerin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, DaveMackay56 said: If you watch EPL All your previous points are now ignored @DaveMackay86. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, johnnydun said: However the original quote was... When, quite clearly it is in the rules. Mate you’re digging a hole here. The rules don’t say it has to be deliberate do they? thus you cannot argue that it it wasn’t deliberate so shouldn’t be a pen. Your misunderstood both the post and the rule. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Empty It Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, AJF said: Precisely, which is why we have the issues we currently do. More emphasis needs to be placed on the deliberate action in the law, IMO. I just can’t agree that the Dundee defender has made himself unnaturally bigger, but appreciate it’s subjective. Therfore why would it be referred to VAR when the referee had a clear view of it and made his decision that he was making himself unnaturally bigger? As said the handball rules is an absolute shambles and needs to be reviewed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, DaveMackay56 said: There have been countless pens for far less. Why was he swivelling btw? To make himself bigger by any chance? If you watch EPL they constantly say when this happens that turning you back on the ball is the worst thing you can do, and is used to justify pens not to argue against. He was clearly swivelling to make himself bigger and try and block the shot. But there is a big difference in making yourself bigger and then deeming his arm to be in an unnatural position. You are allowed to block with your body/legs. His arm was to the side as a consequence of that movement. It’s a natural position for it to be in, IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, johnnydun said: All your previous points are now ignored @DaveMackay86. Fair enough 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, VincentGuerin said: No. The rules do not state that it needs to be deliberate. Not sure what you're struggling with here. Apologies to yourself and @DaveMackay86. The wording initially threw me. Still not a pen imo or going by the rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMackay56 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 2 minutes ago, AJF said: He was clearly swivelling to make himself bigger and try and block the shot. But there is a big difference in making yourself bigger and then deeming his arm to be in an unnatural position. You are allowed to block with your body/legs. His arm was to the side as a consequence of that movement. It’s a natural position for it to be in, IMO. how does turning 90% make your legs and torso bigger? This aside clearly the player was trying to make himself bigger without question, in doing so he stretched his arm out and blocked a goal bound shot. it’s a penalty, the ref got it right, there was no clear and obvious mistake this VAR should not get involved and didn’t get involved. If there’s a debate to be had it the rule not the officiating yesterday which was spot on . anyway - I get the annoyance. Dundee were very good and have some of the best individuals I’ve see. Is play against this season Edited February 4 by DaveMackay56 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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