Scotland starting XI the future.

[RandomGuy.]

12 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

I'm not sure what you mean, I'm assuming they mean in a back 4 with Robertson in front of a left back (Tierney) So it would be a massive difference. For Robertson and for us. As he would be playing a different position as would all the players.

Unless your suggesting the players would ignore the manager and decide themselves to play 532.

Currently when Scotland have the ball Robertson becomes a LM and Tierney a LB.

Robertson style as a player means it would play the same way too.

If you're thinking the back 5 doesn't work and you want a back 4 to change things, then you have to actually change the profile of players you use.

Saying "it's 4-3-3 with Robertson and McGinn on the wings" doesn't mean they'll be able to beat men regularly alone or that we'll be more effective. Robertson would still be needing Tierney to underlap/overlap to beat a man. You only actually change things if you put a proper winger on at least one side who can do things 1v1.

[Old Bing]

12 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Currently when Scotland have the ball Robertson becomes a LM and Tierney a LB.

Robertson style as a player means it would play the same way too.

If you're thinking the back 5 doesn't work and you want a back 4 to change things, then you have to actually change the profile of players you use.

Saying "it's 4-3-3 with Robertson and McGinn on the wings" doesn't mean they'll be able to beat men regularly alone or that we'll be more effective. Robertson would still be needing Tierney to underlap/overlap to beat a man. You only actually change things if you put a proper winger on at least one side who can do things 1v1.

Personally I'm not suggesting Robertson on left wing. Just saying if he was asked to play there the difference certainly wouldn't be nothing.

I understand transitions, but doesn't always work as players aren't immediately able to take these forward positions. See all 3 games at the euros.

Currently he's playing left wing back so he's offering width and trying to support from a deeper position. He's not really much of a dribbler so it kind of suits him to be using his pace to run onto passes and get the cross in.

But he's an excellent top level football player, if he was asked to play left wing I wouldn't expect him to play as a left wing back.

I'm not against completely ditching the back 5, in alot of games it can be affective for us.

Games like N Ireland where were expected to win or Hungary where we have to win it's a mistake.

Basically I'd like to see what a new manager can do with these players before it's to late and alot of the generation we have are gone.

[Butters Scotch]

I've been saying this for a while now on this forum that we look very one dimensional and predictable, organised teams have sussed out the best ways to play against us to get results and we need to be adapting our formations and tactics to counteract this, ensuring we are a step ahead of the opposition. 

Think a massive issue we have in this team is we have too many players that cannot dribble the ball effectively, someone you can just give the ball to who will run at the defenders and create openings. Our main way of attacking is via the KT and Robo combination, creating overloads on the left flank through playing neat passes through the middle initially. When this is no longer an option with KT being out, we end up trying to play it upto the likes of Mcginn to use his arse, turn a defender or go down easily to try win a free kick. When he's off form like he has been recently then we become so toothless. It seemed also in the Hungary game we were relying on McTominay to find the space between their defence and midfield to take the ball in and run forward with it, something that is clearly not his game whatsoever.

The whole side is just imbalanced, trying to fit in all of our most talented players, essentially playing four CM's and expecting them to create chances which is not their natural game at club level and supporting the striker who is often left isolated. Isolated because our CB's are so slow at moving the ball forward in the initial build up phase meaning the other team can get into shape quickly. It just clogs up the midfield area and we can't find a way through then it's all pass, pass, pass - not one player we can just give the ball to who has the talent to be adventerous with it.

For my future team in let's say three years time, I don't think there will be massive changes apart from CB most likely, McGregor to be phased out also and the striker position will be up for grabs. I would move McGinn further down into midfield as I think he's better suited being deeper and can rotate well with the likes of Robertson down our left. Hickey and Doak up our right would be sublime also. See below but genuinely have no idea who can make the step up from under 21's apart from Doak of course:

Gunn (hopefully Slicker develops)

Hickey Hendry Bowat Robertson

McTominay Gilmour McGinn

Doak Ferguson

Conway

[Streets of Raith]

We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water, but need a few adjustments to get us moving forward again.

We switched to a back 5 due to the dearth of competent centre backs, but we can definitely justify a back 4 now.

Watching the Road to the Euros highlights on iplayer, it was remarkable how involved Dykes was in all our big moments - he was a huge miss for this tournament.

Going forward (with no consideration of injuries):

Gunn

Hickey Hendry Hanley Tierney

Gilmour McGinn

Doak McTominay Robbo

Dykes

[Old Bing]

31 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

I've been saying this for a while now on this forum that we look very one dimensional and predictable, organised teams have sussed out the best ways to play against us to get results and we need to be adapting our formations and tactics to counteract this, ensuring we are a step ahead of the opposition. 

Think a massive issue we have in this team is we have too many players that cannot dribble the ball effectively, someone you can just give the ball to who will run at the defenders and create openings. Our main way of attacking is via the KT and Robo combination, creating overloads on the left flank through playing neat passes through the middle initially. When this is no longer an option with KT being out, we end up trying to play it upto the likes of Mcginn to use his arse, turn a defender or go down easily to try win a free kick. When he's off form like he has been recently then we become so toothless. It seemed also in the Hungary game we were relying on McTominay to find the space between their defence and midfield to take the ball in and run forward with it, something that is clearly not his game whatsoever.

The whole side is just imbalanced, trying to fit in all of our most talented players, essentially playing four CM's and expecting them to create chances which is not their natural game at club level and supporting the striker who is often left isolated. Isolated because our CB's are so slow at moving the ball forward in the initial build up phase meaning the other team can get into shape quickly. It just clogs up the midfield area and we can't find a way through then it's all pass, pass, pass - not one player we can just give the ball to who has the talent to be adventerous with it.

For my future team in let's say three years time, I don't think there will be massive changes apart from CB most likely, McGregor to be phased out also and the striker position will be up for grabs. I would move McGinn further down into midfield as I think he's better suited being deeper and can rotate well with the likes of Robertson down our left. Hickey and Doak up our right would be sublime also. See below but genuinely have no idea who can make the step up from under 21's apart from Doak of course:

Gunn (hopefully Slicker develops)

Hickey Hendry Bowat Robertson

McTominay Gilmour McGinn

Doak Ferguson

Conway

If those younger guys develop that's not a bad looking team tbf. Kind of hoping one of our young centre backs can show their worth a place also and replace hendry.

[Tartan Dave]

A 433 with a holding midfielder, a box to box midfielder and someone who can create. A winger who gets at folk and another with an eye for goal

[ICTChris]

Ryan Christie has been one of the best pressing midfielders in the English Premiership in the season just finished.  He has generally been played as a '10' for Scotland and in his club career, or wider, but he's playing superbly for Bournemouth in a deeper role.  His energy and physicality would be a real asset in the middle of park.  We didn't really have that during any of the games in the Euros, he would surely be worth trying there? 

[GHF-23]

The 3 at the back was a good solution to a personnel problem that like most uses of a 3 at the back formation eventually gets found out as you run out of ways to tweak it and become horribly predictable, or the personnel problem no longer exists. I think both of those are the case for us now, the latter as considering the presence of Kieran Tierney any more than a nice surprise once we get to a tournament is silly. He can cover for both Robertson and potentially Hickey from the bench when available, a high class option. Or if Robertson starts to decline he can be first choice there with Doig supporting him. 

I think the most obvious solution is to build a team around a midfield 3 that will almost undoubtedly be still playing international football beyond the next Euros in McTominay, Gilmour and Ferguson in a 433 4231. I think there's a good balance in there as well. 

There was a lot of chat when we were doing well (including by myself) that actually it didn't matter about Elliot Anderson, it didn't matter about Harvey Barnes. Maybe it's just hindsight but that was mental. Obviously Anderson has been out most of the season, and you can't force a player to want to play for you, but it does seem the attitude from the coaches was that we're not going to pursue them. That's potentially your two starting wide players, highly rated at a good EPL team, right there. Barnes might have said he was still desperate to play for England or whatever it was, but that's sort of moot if we haven't really done much to effect his thinking. 

You're then looking at McGinn and potentially McGregor supporting as they get into the twilight of their careers, Christie as well. Then we hope that Turnbull or Campbell turn their current trajectory round a bit, that Hackney picks us, or that Barron, Watson or Miller reach a high level in the next few years and we'd have some decent options across the midfield still. 

As mentioned, GK, CB and CF is what it is. Experiment till something works and play it till it doesn't. 

 

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

Ryan Christie has been one of the best pressing midfielders in the English Premiership in the season just finished.  He has generally been played as a '10' for Scotland and in his club career, or wider, but he's playing superbly for Bournemouth in a deeper role.  His energy and physicality would be a real asset in the middle of park.  We didn't really have that during any of the games in the Euros, he would surely be worth trying there? 

I would like to see this too, as he could potentially complement Gilmour well. 

Hopefully if he continues to do well next season, it’ll leave Clarke no option but to try it. 

[Butters Scotch]

26 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

I would like to see this too, as he could potentially complement Gilmour well. 

Hopefully if he continues to do well next season, it’ll leave Clarke no option but to try it. 

Unfortunately for Christie he is competing also with Ferguson once he's back from injury, another box to to box midfielder on top of all the other usual candidates. Can anyone see McGregor being dropped whilst Clarke is in charge? Not sure he will do that for at least the next two campaigns IMO

[No_Problemo]

5 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Unfortunately for Christie he is competing also with Ferguson once he's back from injury, another box to to box midfielder on top of all the other usual candidates. Can anyone see McGregor being dropped whilst Clarke is in charge? Not sure he will do that for at least the next two campaigns IMO

I think we need to play our players where they are on form for their clubs, so Ferguson is competing for the positions behind the striker for me as he doesn’t ever tend to play deeper for Bologna, although does seem to do a bit of everything from his attacking role. 

Deeper it could be Gilmour and McTominay. Ferguson, McGinn and one other in front - but it absolutely has to be someone that can be direct and has pace. Hopefully someone stakes a claim for that over the next few months. 

Ferguson obviously won’t play in the Nations League, so you can then play Christie deeper with McTominay up front.

Personally, I would also like to try playing Adams as the ten, with Conway in front. 

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, Streets of Raith said:

We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water, but need a few adjustments to get us moving forward again.

We switched to a back 5 due to the dearth of competent centre backs, but we can definitely justify a back 4 now.

Watching the Road to the Euros highlights on iplayer, it was remarkable how involved Dykes was in all our big moments - he was a huge miss for this tournament.

Going forward (with no consideration of injuries):

Gunn

Hickey Hendry Hanley Tierney

Gilmour McGinn

Doak McTominay Robbo

Dykes

We did no such thing. We switched to a five to get Tierney and Robertson into the same team which you've tried to achieve by shoehorning Robertson into a "winger" role. In reality all you've done there is set up a 5-2-2-1 formation exactly what we have now but typed Robertson's name further up the pitch! In reality you've changed nothing at all there other than dumping both McGregor and Christie in favour of Doak.

Not saying any of that is wrong by the way. If Doak develops as we all hope he's going to replace someone. I'd agree that's close to our best eleven, it's just not the change of tactics you seem to think it is.

[Cal]

I'd like to gilmour in a more creative forward role. He started off there before Chelsea moved him to defensive midfield. I don't think that's his game.

[Old Bing]

11 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

We did no such thing. We switched to a five to get Tierney and Robertson into the same team which you've tried to achieve by shoehorning Robertson into a "winger" role. In reality all you've done there is set up a 5-2-2-1 formation exactly what we have now but typed Robertson's name further up the pitch! In reality you've changed nothing at all there other than dumping both McGregor and Christie in favour of Doak.

Not saying any of that is wrong by the way. If Doak develops as we all hope he's going to replace someone. I'd agree that's close to our best eleven, it's just not the change of tactics you seem to think it 

After paragraphs and paragraphs daily of praise for clarke and everything he did on the run up, while dismissing any constructive criticism which paragraphs and paragraphs of crap.

I would have thought you would take a wee break. Or at least cut out the tactical input for a while.

[Skyline Drifter]

29 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

After paragraphs and paragraphs daily of praise for clarke and everything he did on the run up, while dismissing any constructive criticism which paragraphs and paragraphs of crap.

I would have thought you would take a wee break. Or at least cut out the tactical input for a while.

I have no idea what you're on about. Are you confusing me with someone else? I don't recall posting "paragraphs and paragraphs of praise for Clarke" nor of bothering with replying to much of yours. I didn't see much point. If you want to ignore me feel free though. Perfectly comfortable with that.

[Streets of Raith]

41 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

We did no such thing. We switched to a five to get Tierney and Robertson into the same team which you've tried to achieve by shoehorning Robertson into a "winger" role. In reality all you've done there is set up a 5-2-2-1 formation exactly what we have now but typed Robertson's name further up the pitch! In reality you've changed nothing at all there other than dumping both McGregor and Christie in favour of Doak.

Not saying any of that is wrong by the way. If Doak develops as we all hope he's going to replace someone. I'd agree that's close to our best eleven, it's just not the change of tactics you seem to think it is.

Playing McTominay in the defence suggests a lack of confidence in the options there. It was both.

Yes it's not a seismic shift but the difference is that whilst Robbo would be out of position, the other 9 outfielders are playing in their natural roles. (noted Hickey arguably a left back).

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, Streets of Raith said:

Playing McTominay in the defence suggests a lack of confidence in the options there. It was both.

Yes it's not a seismic shift but the difference is that whilst Robbo would be out of position, the other 9 outfielders are playing in their natural roles. (noted Hickey arguably a left back).

I'm sure we were playing a five long before McTominay's centre back period. That was more about shoehorning McTominay into the team than anything else I thought. It's not why we moved to a five.

[Old Bing]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I have no idea what you're on about. Are you confusing me with someone else? I don't recall posting "paragraphs and paragraphs of praise for Clarke" nor of bothering with replying to much of yours. I didn't see much point. If you want to ignore me feel free though. Perfectly comfortable with that.

You may not have seen much point, but as it turns out I was searlingly accurate. And you were absolutely miles off.

[Skyline Drifter]

5 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

You may not have seen much point, but as it turns out I was searlingly accurate. And you were absolutely miles off.

Nope, still absolutely no idea what you're referring to. But that's fine, happy for you to keep it to yourself.

[Old Bing]

Just now, Skyline Drifter said:

Nope, still absolutely no idea what you're referring to. But that's fine, happy for you to keep it to yourself.

Oh you know