Reason for horrible exit: lack of quality or overly-defensive tactics?

[2426255]

Were Scotland more defensive than Hungary?

[Jives Miguel]

We just needed to play 4-4-2 with Ryan Gauld and Lewis Morgan, and the laddy Shonklund up front and we'd have beaten Hungary 5-0 easily. Clarke must go 

 

Also, force Callum McGregor, McGinn and Armstrong into retirement and call up Lennon Miller and Danny Armstrong 

Edited June 24 by Jives Miguel

[S7C]

25 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

We just needed to play 4-4-2 with Ryan Gauld and Lewis Morgan, and the laddy Shonklund up front and we'd have beaten Hungary 5-0 easily. Clarke must go 

 

Also, force Callum McGregor, McGinn and Armstrong into retirement and call up Lennon Miller and Danny Armstrong 

It’s quite incredible how sensitive you are to any criticism of this team.

[DiegoDiego]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

I don't take either of those parts of the games as a sign the players aren't playing for the manager.

That's not at all what I'm suggesting as I also don't think that's the case. I fear that he isn't preparing the players correctly from a mental point of view. You would have to be an absolute arsehole to purposefully chuck it at a major tournament, my worry is that the squad weren't in the right headspace to put their best foot forward, and as most of them had been there before that's kinda inexcusable.

[kennie makevin]

8 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

This idea that our best players are "average" compared to Hungary is utter fantasy. Individually, we have more good players than they do. 

They're a better team, had a bit of belief, some balls, and didn't shit the bed. That's the difference.

 

Delusional....We just played them , in a real game, on a real pitch. Not in your head. Our best players were distinctly average against Hungary. Why that is is the moot point. But pretending we are what we're not gets us nowhere.

[Old Bing]

3 minutes ago, kennie makevin said:

Delusional....We just played them , in a real game, on a real pitch. Not in your head. Our best players were distinctly average against Hungary. Why that is is the moot point. But pretending we are what we're not gets us nowhere.

Why do you think tactics are irrelevant is a more pertinent question for me, in which case literally anyone could be the manager.

He's right, you go thru the players and compare them there's a reason why we have more players playing at a higher level, collectively we are better.

We couldn't make our team perform well, that's the job of the manager.

Like let's say for instance you have 2 identical teams one managed by clarke the other by Jurgen Klopp. It's not a coin toss, Klopps team will win. Occasionally Clarkes team may win a penalty or score from a corner and hold on. But mostly they will get beat as he will be out thought and out manoeuvred.

We need someone who can get the team playing as greater than the sum of its parts, not worse which has been the case for quite a while.

The results of the poll are pretty clear its tactics and were not getting the best out of the players, and this is a board full of steve clarke fanatics!

[sparky88]

Not sure Scotland were defensive. They just couldn't break Hungary down. If were actually defensive, playing with Ralston, Hendry and Hanley, we might well have lost be more than 1 goal.

[Old Bing]

1 minute ago, sparky88 said:

Not sure Scotland were defensive. They just couldn't break Hungary down. If were actually defensive, playing with Ralston, Hendry and Hanley, we might well have lost be more than 1 goal.

Well if the information on all the record breaking negative stats doesn't convince you then nothing will.

[sparky88]

1 minute ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Well if the information on all the record breaking negative stats doesn't convince you then nothing will.

Scotland didn't threaten Hungary's goal for almost all of the match, that's absolutely true.

 

But it wasn't out of choice.

[Willie adie]

We  are too predictable  to play  against. 

All our attacks stem from the wings usually  the left and teams know that now , opposition  are happy to let us knock the ball around  square in defence and midfield  as they know we have no cutting  edge.  We are one dimensional up front. 

And any changes  made during games are the same changes and personnel 

[Old Bing]

12 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Scotland didn't threaten Hungary's goal for almost all of the match, that's absolutely true.

 

But it wasn't out of choice.

They didn't really threaten anyone's goals over the 3 games.

If you have nobody forward to pass to, if you are a forward and have a ball flying at your head with none of your players around you. It's not your fault.

[FalkirkBairn2021]

14 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

They didn't really threaten anyone's goals over the 3 games.

If you have nobody forward to pass to, if you are a forward and have a ball flying at your head with none of your players around you. It's not your fault.

Yeah, I always wonder what our actual attacking plan is when you pick that XI. 

Che Adams is terrible and just won't score. But he's not exactly given much chance to get involved either.  So we are reliant mainly on either of McTominay or McGinn getting on the end of.. a botched clearance? 

Not much of a setup that..  

I get that playing more open risks a pounding. We could have setup differently v Switzerland and Hungary and lost both. But we might have been watchable.  

As well as being absolutely shit we are dire to watch. Incredibly boring. 

I don't think Dykes is very good but I guess he delivers that opportunity to get the midfield more involved and hes comfortably our best striker and we missed having an actual right back who is a threat as Hickey and Paterson are. 

Clarke had weeks to come up with something and delivered that shite. More the days go by the more I realise he has to go.

 

Edited June 25 by FalkirkBairn2021

[Old Bing]

1 minute ago, FalkirkBairn2021 said:

Yeah, I always wonder what our actual attacking plan is when you pick that XI. 

Che Adams is terrible and just won't score. So we are reliant mainly on either of McTominay or McGinn getting on the end of.. a botched clearance? 

Not much of a setup that..  

I get that playing more open risks a pounding. We could have setup differently v Switzerland and Hungary and lost both. But we might have been watchable.  

As well as being absolutely shit we are dire to watch. Incredibly boring. 

 

 

I think the plan with McTominay and McGinn was to just give them the ball with nobody around them and hope they can dribble past 5 players and score. I thought they gave it an admirable go.

[FalkirkBairn2021]

One other thing.. with other countries you often see a lineup and think 'f**k, who's that guy and why have they left *insert good player here * on the bench '

Reason being they have better management who recognises that just picking the 11 who plays for the best clubs isn't necessarily the right idea. 

 

[monrovianmonk]

Thing is, better teams than us won't get through their group (e.g. Croatia). It's not the lack of getting out the group it's the utterly pathetic way we went about it. If we failed but had a right good go at it then we'd probably all accept that. We were inept, boring and toothless.

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, kennie makevin said:

Delusional....We just played them , in a real game, on a real pitch. Not in your head. Our best players were distinctly average against Hungary. Why that is is the moot point. But pretending we are what we're not gets us nowhere.

Are you new to football or just simple?

You know it's not always the team with the best collection of individual players that wins, right?

Is there a Belgian equivalent of you out there who thinks Slovakia have better individual players than Belgium do?

Did you think Scotland had better individual players than Spain when we beat them last year?

[2426255]

Did Hungary go for it? I can't even remember them going on the front foot and they were in exactly the same boat as us, but perhaps they did.

I find it funny that Scotland are being criticised for being defensive (playing a back-3) while Hungary are being credited as playing a smart game sitting on the counter (also playing a back-3). Rossi outsmarted Clarke tactically, had his number etc. If Hungary had lost wouldn't they be getting it tight from their fans saying it's a must win game you have to be on the front foot? If we had played like Hungary and lost our support would be even worse than they've been, if that's possible. 

It's just outcome bias. I don't think anyone can fairly describe our team as using defensive tactics. Football isn't that simple that all you need to do to win is take out a defender and put on an attacker. 

Edited June 25 by 2426255

[Old Bing]

It's for me been quite a surprising and interesting thread.

This place has been very very pro clarke, so I was kind of expecting the vote to blame the players. I think clarke has really let alot of folk down who had alot of faith in him. 

So I think it's pretty unanimous, there's always a couple of outliers who maybe don't watch alot of football. Which is fine.

But we're all scotland fans together.

 

[Elgin Macca]

2 days have past and I'm still seething at the penalty decision more than anything just now. I cant believe more isn't being made of it and there hasn't been clarity on why it wasn't awarded. 1 kick away from the last 16. And if we had scored I genuinely believe we hold on. I feel for Clarke and the players in this respect

Edited June 25 by Elgin Macca

[2426255]

Just now, Elgin Macca said:

4 days have past and I'm still seething at the penalty decision more than anything just now. I cant believe more isn't being made of it and there hasn't been clarity on why it wasn't awarded. 1 kick away from the last 16. And if we had scored I genuinely believe we hold on. I feel for Clarke and the players in this respect

I think the general consensus is that we didn't do enough anyway to justify moaning too much about that, that's how I feel about it personally. I never really get overly hung up about decisions. You get some, you lose some. If you're depending on a decision from the ref to get you over the line or need football luck to get you over the line then you probably have to accept when you don't get it.

That's why I'd like to see us continue on the path we're on of getting closer to pot-1 teams to try and take that element away. Switzerland were able to absorb a draw against us and still qualify. Belgium will be able to absorb a loss to Slovakia and probably still qualify. That's how I look at that.