welshbairn Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 On 09/05/2020 at 10:47, Detournement said: a second referendum position would result in an easy Labour victory. Given that Corbyn trapped Labour into never having a clear 2nd referendum position and ended up with the worst result since 1935, not sure if that's down to the centrists. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 On 09/05/2020 at 12:57, Turkmenbashi said: What's going here? I presume it's this. Given that Labour have very little chance of doing anything themselves for the next 4 years, I suppose they were suggesting something that's remotely possible for the Tories to take on, rather than just saying nobody has to pay rent for the foreseeable and the Government will pick up the tab. https://labour.org.uk/press/emergency-action-needed-to-protect-renters/ -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 21 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Given that Corbyn trapped Labour into never having a clear 2nd referendum position and ended up with the worst result since 1935, not sure if that's down to the centrists. They only had to stick with the 2017 position. It just wasn't possible because of the PV defacto Blairite party which was allowed to set the news agenda every day of 2019 until the election was called and whip liberal idiots into a frenzy. The fact that so many intelligent people on the left folded to what was basically a Campbell/Mandelson/Rudd Psy Op has turned me into a nihilist as far as British electoral politics go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Detournement said: They only had to stick with the 2017 position. It just wasn't possible because of the PV defacto Blairite party which was allowed to set the news agenda every day of 2019 until the election was called and whip liberal idiots into a frenzy. The fact that so many intelligent people on the left folded to what was basically a Campbell/Mandelson/Rudd Psy Op has turned me into a nihilist as far as British electoral politics go. As a psyop it was the worst ever. PV managed to kill itself off the moment they came up with the name. Meant Corbyn could carry on blocking the party majority with no repercussions till the election. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, MixuFixit said: You yes yet? I'm not even registered to vote at my new address and something big will have to happen to change that. I voted Yes the last time but I knew a lot less about politics and economics then. The thought of the SNP shaping the institutions of a new independent Scotland gives me the fear. Edited May 14, 2020 by Detournement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: join me in kicking them in the pie at the first post independence election then! As I've said before it may already be too late by then if they have followed the Growth Commission plan. And given it passed the conference it's obviously their intention. If it's neoliberal independence I'm not voting for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, Detournement said: I'm not even registered to vote at my new address and something big will have to happen to change that. I voted Yes the last time but I knew a lot less about politics and economics then. The thought of the SNP shaping the institutions of a new independent Scotland gives me the fear. Why is that? No more Trident in Scottish waters = bad? No more paying for HS2 = bad? Keeping ALL revenues in Scotland = bad? 4 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: join me in kicking them in the pie at the first post independence election then! I'm the same except there would have to be a political party who were more to the left than the SNP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 If you accept a share of the UK national debt in GBP and then run up more GBP then we are in the same hole as the likes of Argentina with large debts in a foreign currency. You can't vote your way out of that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Wee Willie said: Why is that? No more Trident in Scottish waters = bad? No more paying for HS2 = bad? Keeping ALL revenues in Scotland = bad? Firstly there is no chance we can be NATO members and kick Trident out of Scotland. It'll be a lobbying contest between anti nuclear advocates and the US State dept..... I wonder who would come out on top. Currency is the primary issue and without our own currency we wouldn't be truly independent. As the SNP admits it would necessitate harsh austerity to keep bond rates low. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Detournement said: Firstly there is no chance we can be NATO members and kick Trident out of Scotland. It'll be a lobbying contest between anti nuclear advocates and the US State dept..... I wonder who would come out on top. Currency is the primary issue and without our own currency we wouldn't be truly independent. As the SNP admits it would necessitate harsh austerity to keep bond rates low. Surely it would be Scottish electors making the decision to get rid of Trident and no the US State Department? I ken eff-all about currency but what did every other country who gained independence do at the start? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 16 minutes ago, Detournement said: If you accept a share of the UK national debt in GBP and then run up more GBP then we are in the same hole as the likes of Argentina with large debts in a foreign currency. You can't vote your way out of that. Why should we accept a share of the UK debt when it was the UK who made the debt? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Wee Willie said: Why should we accept a share of the UK debt when it was the UK who made the debt? 1. Because we are and have been part of the U.K. 2. An Independent Scotland would not be taken seriously if it reneged on obligations. There are other reasons but these two are enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Wee Willie said: Why should we accept a share of the UK debt when it was the UK who made the debt? The SNP plan involves taking on a share of the national debt in Sterling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 The SNP plan involves taking on a share of the national debt in Sterling. You are long on the problems but short on ideas - we're all ears. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Wee Willie said: I ken eff-all about currency but what did every other country who gained independence do at the start? They created their own currency. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 1 minute ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: 3 minutes ago, Detournement said: The SNP plan involves taking on a share of the national debt in Sterling. You are long on the problems but short on ideas - we're all ears. To me the only way to do it is to issue a Scottish currency and convert the GBP debt into Scottish money on day one. But that involves standing up to a lot of wealthy and powerful factions and communicating complex ideas to the electorate neither of which the SNP have shown any aptitude or enthusiasm for. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Detournement said: They created their own currency. On day one? I see Slovakia shared the Czechoslovakian currency for a short period before fixing their own to a basket of foreign currencies. '43-2-1635.pdf Edited May 14, 2020 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Willie Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 9 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: 1. Because we are and have been part of the U.K. 2. An Independent Scotland would not be taken seriously if it reneged on obligations. There are other reasons but these two are enough. GD you and I are on the same side of the fence but that is bollocks. Surely if an independent Scotland is given a bill by the rUK government then we would presumably ask for it to be itemized. Trident = x amount HS2 = y amount Other expensive English only projects = z amount Would you or anyone else seriously expect us to pay for these? Also surely if we were expected to pay eg 10% of these then we should also get 10% of UK assets. There's enough creative accountants on here that could make the balance sheet err balance. 9 minutes ago, Detournement said: The SNP plan involves taking on a share of the national debt in Sterling. see my reply to GD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, welshbairn said: On day one? I see Slovakia shared the Czechoslovakian currency for a short period before fixing their own to a basket of foreign currencies. That's a completely different situation. There is nowhere to compare to Scotland. We have a unique situation where we are extremely wealthy in GBP and the wealthiest in society are dead set against independence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Just now, Detournement said: That's a completely different situation. There is nowhere to compare to Scotland. We have a unique situation where we are extremely wealthy in GBP and the wealthiest in society are dead set against independence. You said that other countries set up their own currencies on day one of independence. It would be interesting to know how they did it and if foreign trade partners accepted it for payment straightaway, or if they needed large stocks of foreign currency to tide them over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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