What is the point of labour ?

[Guest Jedi]

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Are you a member?

I am now, yes, but only very recently.

Given that its reckoned to be around 40% of Labour voters supporting Independence, with 77% in favour of a 2nd Ref,it seems that the leadership can't dodge the question forever. They must have learned by now that in any straight fight on the constitution, if they continue to back the union, that the Tories will always 'out unionist' them. As we know well, the Scottish Tories have one policy 'stop a 2nd Referendum' and er...thats about it.

Unless Labour move to a position of accepting a 2nd Ref if that is the majority position (which it obviously is,at present), and offering a serious devolution alternative, not a Vow, not a 'more vague powers for the Scottish parliament', but real fiscal control, and they get serious about replacing the House of Lords with a Council of the Islands, then I agree, that they will remain largely irrelevant in Scottish politics.

I think that would be a great shame, not only as it leaves Holyrood without 'real' opposition, and the chance to broaden the debate on Scotland's constitutional future, but also means that they don't get a chance to be heard on issues like social justice, equality, public services, education, health, justice, and how to rebuild after Covid. Otherwise the SNP will continue to have free reign to set the agenda.

I think Scotland's constitutional future deserves a wider discussion, not simply Andrew Wilson's plan versus No Ref, but....lets face it the union as we know it is dead, what are the different options.....can the SNP offer something 'as well as; the Growth Commission (be great if they could), what would 'real' devolution look like? Given that groups like Common Weal and the RIC are very unhappy with the Growth Commission report...what are they adding to the table as well? What does Independence look like post-Brexit and post-Covid?.....I would love all these options to be out there and up for discussion.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I am now, yes, but only very recently.

Given that its reckoned to be around 40% of Labour voters supporting Independence, with 77% in favour of a 2nd Ref,it seems that the leadership can't dodge the question forever. They must have learned by now that in any straight fight on the constitution, if they continue to back the union, that the Tories will always 'out unionist' them. As we know well, the Scottish Tories have one policy 'stop a 2nd Referendum' and er...thats about it.

Unless Labour move to a position of accepting a 2nd Ref if that is the majority position (which it obviously is,at present), and offering a serious devolution alternative, not a Vow, not a 'more vague powers for the Scottish parliament', but real fiscal control, and they get serious about replacing the House of Lords with a Council of the Islands, then I agree, that they will remain largely irrelevant in Scottish politics.

I think that would be a great shame, not only as it leaves Holyrood without 'real' opposition, and the chance to broaden the debate on Scotland's constitutional future, but also means that they don't get a chance to be heard on issues like social justice, equality, public services, education, health, justice, and how to rebuild after Covid. Otherwise the SNP will continue to have free reign to set the agenda.

Or we can just gain independence, PR and have as many parties as we like, with each vote counting.

[Guest Jedi]

We can.....but would it not be good to bring a range of views to the table, to broaden discussion on what happens post a Yes vote?

[welshbairn]

Just now, Jedi said:

We can.....but would it not be good to bring a range of views to the table, to broaden discussion on what happens post a Yes vote?

It's a bit boring when you just rehash every Better Together argument based on the Treasury being uncooperative right till the end, against their interests, and assume the EU would be unwelcoming too. You throw around worst case scenarios like confetti, and pretend you're in two minds about it all.

[Guest Jedi]

Fair dos then.....just a Yes vote required, and everything else can just sort itself out sometime down the line after that. I think the 'it will all be alright on the night' is boring as well, but its a game of opinions.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jedi

[ICTJohnboy]

Just now, Jedi said:

Fair dos then.....just a Yes vote required, and everything else can just sort itself out sometime down the line after that.

 

A bit like Brexit then?

[Guest Jedi]

Pretty much....after all, no plan needed for Indy....just vote it through.

[ICTJohnboy]

18 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Pretty much....after all, no plan needed for Indy....just vote it through.

 

You might find this plan from 2013 interesting. It certainly provided much more detail than the UK govt plan for Brexit

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/

[Guest Jedi]

Loved the White Paper.....its so 2013 now though.....Andrew Wilson is the box office show in town instead.

[ICTJohnboy]

A few tweaks here and there and it will be just fine for Indyref2.

You'll be so impressed you'll probably end up voting Yes.

[Pocketman]

4 hours ago, Jedi said:

 

@KingRocketman II    As I have said about a zillion times, in a choice between Indy and status quo-I support Indy and will vote Yes, so don't see the 'tosh' in being critical of the SNP, leaving the party, but given that choice, after so long, still backing Yes, in those circumstances. Following the hit to the economy of both Covid and Brexit which will take some time for both Scotland and England to recover from, to me, it would be a safer option at this stage though, to have proper devolution, to enable Scotland to make its own economic decisions, until such times as the economy can stabalise again-could be 10 years, who knows. 

I didn't say it was tosh to be critical of the SNP - you have mis-read. you state, and gave stated a zillion times that in a choice between indy and status quo you will vote "yes" - assuming yes is for Scotland to be independent. However you qualify this by saying that due to covid and Brexit you would seek further devolution or proper devolution to strengthen the economy - therefore a desire to remain part of the UK in those circumstances and retain the status quo. 

You are a bit all over the place tbh. 

[Baxter Parp]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

We can.....but would it not be good to bring a range of views to the table, to broaden discussion on what happens post a Yes vote?

The unionist parties have no interest in acknowledging the possibility of independence never mind putting forward ideas on the shape of an independent Scotland.

[Guest Jedi]

Its a good article, to be fair. Highlights the difficulties inherent in the proposals, particularly how the English part of it is managed...an English 'parliament', or slicing up the regions? how to balance an unbalanced population share across the UK. He is right about it being an appeal to those in Scotland who are more likely to vote Tory just to stop Indy Ref 2, by offering that middle ground alternative. He is also right that it has been a talking shop in previous mainfesto's but needs to have real substance this time around.

[S7C]

Is there a politician more insufferable than the sanctimonious p***k that is Paul Sweeney? 

[NotThePars]

Is there a politician more insufferable than the sanctimonious p***k that is Paul Sweeney? 

He doesn’t help himself at all. For every time he says or does something commendable there’s a weird meltdown or galaxy brain take in someone’s Twitter replies.

[Gordon EF]

14 hours ago, Jedi said:

Fair dos then.....just a Yes vote required, and everything else can just sort itself out sometime down the line after that. I think the 'it will all be alright on the night' is boring as well, but its a game of opinions.

Both are boring. Of course, what we all write on this forum doesn't matter at all, but the debate does become pretty inane when you have a group effectively saying "we're doomed" and the other saying "it'll be fine" to everything. Some folk are like that, some folk aren't. There are plenty of posters here who take a much more nuanced, rational and balanced view on these things. It feels like you mostly ignore all that in order to play the victim. It's like the opposite of an echo chamber, you seem acutely sensitive to the kinds of post you don't like and then have this impression that's what everyone is like.

For what it's worth, I do believe you when you say you were an SNP member and voted SNP/Yes. I think your logic of not liking the SNP government and so deciding to join the Labour Party is fairly bizarre but I don't doubt you.

I feel like you genuinely think your perspective is one of unbiased and honest criticism (and maybe it is) but I think the reaction you get is partly down to your posts sounding a bit like a series of tweets from Ruth Davidson or Douglas Ross along the lines of "SNP aren't getting on with the day job, failing on (just lists every devolved issue)'

Genuine question here, do you just not like governing parties? You supported the SNP when they were the outsiders and you could probably project your own values on to them without that having to be compromised by them being in government. The SNP become the government and you start gravitating away from them and end up in a Labour party that haven't been in power in Scotland for 13 years and Westminster for 10. Again, to some extent, they're unsullied by having to actually make any decisions that people don't like or are never judged on results.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Gordon EF

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Ex-Labour MP and MSP James Home-Robertson on the verge of backing independence due to Starmer's stance on Brexit.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18963701.politician-sat-labour-mp-msp-now-on-cusp-backing-independence/

[Dunning1874]

Turns out the real purpose all along was to take the fight to big zoo. While saying nothing about schools.

[Arsenal till I die]

On 23/12/2020 at 12:57, Fullerene said:

Every book I have ever read about communist countries has a recurring theme - suspicion and paranoia.
Whatever utopia they are trying to achieve is constantly sabotaged by dark forces working against them.
Not just capitalist countries but enemies within.  Trust nobody.

When people in the Labour Party talk the same way, it makes them sound like communists too.

I am well aware that MSM hates the Labour Party.  They are not hiding in the darkness, they are out in the open and it is a disgrace how much influence they have.
Similarly there were opponents in the same party as Corbyn because FPTP forces them to be.
So yes, there were people who opposed Corbyn but that was known from the start.  It does not mean everyone was against him.  

The Labour Manifesto of 2017 seemed reasonable enough.  If a different leader had offered up the exact same thing, it might have done better.

The main objection to Corbyn was not that the party was too left wing.  It was the clumsiness, dithering and amateurism that caused the problem.
Too many people thought Corbyn was too incompetent to be leader.
In fairness, Johnson is equally incompetent but he is a snake oil merchant and simply better at fooling people.

Medicare would be Communism type post imho

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, Arsenal till I die said:

Medicare would be Communism type post imho

I would agree with that.  During the Cold War, any country that wanted more teachers and more nurses was perceived as a communist threat.  In America, some people will call you a communist if you want to improve the life of anyone poor.

At the same time I recognise that virtually every communist country was seen as awful.   A lot of that was to do with suspicion and paranoia that was on the go all the time.

If the Labour Party spends all its time saying "we could great things if only millions of people weren't against us"- well that is what the communists kept saying.  I am simply saying tone down the paranoia even if some of it is valid.