What is the point of labour ?

[StellarHibee]

5 hours ago, doulikefish said:

Starmer "the 2 child cap is inhuman"

Starmer this morning "yeah we are keeping that "

The electorate: "Yeah, he's the guy who will bring the change we need".

[StellarHibee]

42 minutes ago, orfc said:

Once he gets into power he can do what he likes and I hope he changes a lot of stuff if he has the money to do it

He won't and a lack of money will be his excuse while the mega rich continue to get all of the financial breaks. But thanks for reminding us all how irrelevant the Scottish electorate are when it comes to UK elections.

[Highlandmagar]

48 minutes ago, orfc said:

At the moment he's winning. Going all Nicaragua like Corbyn did and start shouting off about hardcore socialism is just going to lose him votes. He doesn't need to do that and he's realised he just needs to match them but to the left a bit. Even if you actually think he's an extremist, which is a tin foil hat the size of jamiroquai territory, rather than boxing clever, everyone sensible with views to the left and centre will vote for whoever gets the tories out - mostly the answer is labour - and those who have views to the right are a diminishing rump which isn't enough for Sunak to win

Once he gets into power he can do what he likes and I hope he changes a lot of stuff if he has the money to do it

What you're all narked about is that he's winning so clearly there's no chance he'll need the snp for a coalition, who are going to number less than 30 anyways

 

If Scotland returns a substantially increased Labour representation then they fully deserve the even more extreme Tory government that will inevitably return at the election succeeding this next one.

[Suspect Device]

Has anyone got a definitive list of Starmer's pledges which have become U turns. There seems to be loads.

[scottsdad]

For Starmer to be a good Prime Minister, he has to under-promise and over-deliver. 

And you have to admit, he is awesome at the under-promising bit. 

[dirty dingus]

Here are some of the biggies.  

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/04/u-turns-labour-keir-starmer-tuition-fees-income-tax

 

[Billy Jean King]

10 hours ago, orfc said:

At the moment he's winning. Going all Nicaragua like Corbyn did and start shouting off about hardcore socialism is just going to lose him votes. He doesn't need to do that and he's realised he just needs to match them but to the left a bit. Even if you actually think he's an extremist, which is a tin foil hat the size of jamiroquai territory, rather than boxing clever, everyone sensible with views to the left and centre will vote for whoever gets the tories out - mostly the answer is labour - and those who have views to the right are a diminishing rump which isn't enough for Sunak to win

Once he gets into power he can do what he likes and I hope he changes a lot of stuff if he has the money to do it

What you're all narked about is that he's winning so clearly there's no chance he'll need the snp for a coalition, who are going to number less than 30 anyways

 

He's certainly suckered you ! If you think Starmer is currently playing some sort of rope-a-dope with the electorate to get elected only to see him then announce some sort of socialist agenda after gaining power I would suggest you are going to be mighty disappointed. You are getting Tory lite, he's actually telling you as much yet fools keep thinking this is all an elaborate ruse to win power.

[AndyM]

53 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

He's certainly suckered you ! If you think Starmer is currently playing some sort of rope-a-dope with the electorate to get elected only to see him then announce some sort of socialist agenda after gaining power I would suggest you are going to be mighty disappointed. You are getting Tory lite, he's actually telling you as much yet fools keep thinking this is all an elaborate ruse to win power.

Its' basically "Hi, I'm not Boris or Mad Liz who blew up the economy.. Vote for me.."

He'll win next year and not do very much. Not that he has to as the Tory party will lurch off further to far-right moonhowler territory almost guaranteeing him a second term.

[RuMoore]

I think a lot of people on here are failing to see things from the perspective of the electorate. 

Of course Starmer isn't going to announce some major socialist agenda after winning power, people don't want that even if you personally do...

The framing on places like here are that you only have two options which are "Socialist agenda" or "Tory-lite" but outwith spaces like this people don't really view it like that at all. 

They want rid of the Tories and generally speaking the electorate are centrist leaning. This is not the same as being Tories no matter how hard some left leaning types try and claim so. Starmers Labour won't inspire people that want radical change but it will be preferable than the current crop of Tories that we're stuck with. SNP supporters are very salty at the thought of losing seats to Labour so these boring attack lines have ramped up, they don't work offline though so it's just keyboard thrashing we'll have to put up with til after the general election and like some have mentioned if your end goal is Independence it doesn't really change anything on that front either, people are still as entrenched as ever and there's no prospect of a referendum in the next decade at least. 

[Billy Jean King]

33 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

I think a lot of people on here are failing to see things from the perspective of the electorate. 

Of course Starmer isn't going to announce some major socialist agenda after winning power, people don't want that even if you personally do...

The framing on places like here are that you only have two options which are "Socialist agenda" or "Tory-lite" but outwith spaces like this people don't really view it like that at all. 

They want rid of the Tories and generally speaking the electorate are centrist leaning. This is not the same as being Tories no matter how hard some left leaning types try and claim so. Starmers Labour won't inspire people that want radical change but it will be preferable than the current crop of Tories that we're stuck with. SNP supporters are very salty at the thought of losing seats to Labour so these boring attack lines have ramped up, they don't work offline though so it's just keyboard thrashing we'll have to put up with til after the general election and like some have mentioned if your end goal is Independence it doesn't really change anything on that front either, people are still as entrenched as ever and there's no prospect of a referendum in the next decade at least. 

Try seeing this outwith an SNP / Indy obsession. There was zero mention of either in the point made above. 

Clearly Starmers line has hooked you in too. There is no point in getting rid of the Tories if you are going to replace them with the diet version.  A watered down (very slight dilution at that) version of current Tory policy is all you will get from Starmer. If that pleases you then fair enough but he ain't going to be the great Messiah.

[RuMoore]

4 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

Try seeing this outwith an SNP / Indy obsession. There was zero mention of either in the point made above. 

Clearly Starmers line has hooked you in too. There is no point in getting rid of the Tories if you are going to replace them with the diet version.  A watered down (very slight dilution at that) version of current Tory policy is all you will get from Starmer. If that pleases you then fair enough but he ain't going to be the great Messiah.

My post is quite clearly not framed around any SNP obsession and it wasn't directly aimed at your post otherwise I would have quoted you. 

It shouldn't need to be explained further if you had properly read and understood my post but for the benefit of doubt I reject the idea that Labour are currently merely "Tory-lite" or Diet Tories or Red Tories or whatever creativity devoid name on the go. This is lazy framing and has zero real world application of nuance and balance. 

Also as a side note it's always funny to see people struggle with the concept that even if Labour were Tory-lite that to most people that's preferable still to the full flavoured version.

Considering the options for the electorate it's either vote for Labour or get the Tories. Most people don't view them as the same party no matter how much some will try and frame it.

Who would you personally and realistically recommend the UK electorate to vote for if they were to want an improvement in their lives? 

[Jeff Venom]

It's super cute the way Labour fanboys see Labour getting a toatie wee shot at the big job from time to time with the FPTP system routinely returning right wing govs to WM (for what, 100 years?) as the electorate being 'centrist' and it somehow being an acceptable status quo for the Scottish electorate. Labour, like the Tories, can get absolutely fucked.

[coprolite]

12 hours ago, orfc said:

At the moment he's winning. Going all Nicaragua like Corbyn did and start shouting off about hardcore socialism is just going to lose him votes. He doesn't need to do that and he's realised he just needs to match them but to the left a bit. Even if you actually think he's an extremist, which is a tin foil hat the size of jamiroquai territory, rather than boxing clever, everyone sensible with views to the left and centre will vote for whoever gets the tories out - mostly the answer is labour - and those who have views to the right are a diminishing rump which isn't enough for Sunak to win

Once he gets into power he can do what he likes and I hope he changes a lot of stuff if he has the money to do it

What you're all narked about is that he's winning so clearly there's no chance he'll need the snp for a coalition, who are going to number less than 30 anyways

 

 

1 hour ago, RuMoore said:

I think a lot of people on here are failing to see things from the perspective of the electorate. 

Of course Starmer isn't going to announce some major socialist agenda after winning power, people don't want that even if you personally do...

The framing on places like here are that you only have two options which are "Socialist agenda" or "Tory-lite" but outwith spaces like this people don't really view it like that at all. 

They want rid of the Tories and generally speaking the electorate are centrist leaning. This is not the same as being Tories no matter how hard some left leaning types try and claim so. Starmers Labour won't inspire people that want radical change but it will be preferable than the current crop of Tories that we're stuck with. SNP supporters are very salty at the thought of losing seats to Labour so these boring attack lines have ramped up, they don't work offline though so it's just keyboard thrashing we'll have to put up with til after the general election and like some have mentioned if your end goal is Independence it doesn't really change anything on that front either, people are still as entrenched as ever and there's no prospect of a referendum in the next decade at least. 

I don’t live in Scotland and couldn’t give a shite about the SNP or Scottish Independence. 
 

Starmer’s ham fisted triangulation, aiming for the centre and grabbing the centre right has alienated me to the point I can’t vote for Labour any more. 
 

I think it might work electorally but what’s the point if they’re not Labour any more. And that party isn’t the Labour Party I knew.

[RuMoore]

15 minutes ago, Jeff Venom said:

It's super cute the way Labour fanboys see Labour getting a toatie wee shot at the big job from time to time with the FPTP system routinely returning right wing govs to WM (for what, 100 years?) as the electorate being 'centrist' and it somehow being an acceptable status quo for the Scottish electorate. Labour, like the Tories, can get absolutely fucked.

If this is aimed at myself it's hilarious to think I'm a Labour "fanboy". 

What's your suggested alternative? 

13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 

I don’t live in Scotland and couldn’t give a shite about the SNP or Scottish Independence. 
 

Starmer’s ham fisted triangulation, aiming for the centre and grabbing the centre right has alienated me to the point I can’t vote for Labour any more. 
 

I think it might work electorally but what’s the point if they’re not Labour any more. And that party isn’t the Labour Party I knew.

That's all completely fair and reasonable. 

Is the area you stay a straight shoot out between Plaid and Labour? 

[picklish]

Labour fanboys who can't even bring themselves to admit it are the new shy Tories

[coprolite]

6 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

If this is aimed at myself it's hilarious to think I'm a Labour "fanboy". 

What's your suggested alternative? 

That's all completely fair and reasonable. 

Is the area you stay a straight shoot out between Plaid and Labour? 

It’s fairly solid labour with a big Lib Dem presence on the council. No real chance of going blue.

I think we’d a Green candidate instead of Plaid at the last election because they did a pact.

Going for the centre ground is short termist. Supporting a party that does that is also short termist.

The Tory right didn’t get their way by backing David Cameron; they got it by backing Farage. I don’t share the view that a vote for a proper left leaning party is a wasted vote at all. 
 

I understand the incrementalism argument, that Labour would be an improvement, but there’s an opportunity cost to accepting that minuscule improvement in exchange for the potential improvement in living standards and social justice that they should be campaigning for.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RuMoore said:

They want rid of the Tories and generally speaking the electorate are centrist leaning. 

Polls don't suggest this. Even a majority of Tory voters support the nationalisation of water in England and Wales, for example (it's already nationalised in Scotland and Northern Ireland). Corbyn-era Labour policies were very popular when polled. Starmer has had no need to do what he's done, winning on socialist policies would be very achievable in the current context. There's no Brexit which wrecked Labour in 2019, there's now a struggling SNP in Scotland rather than an ascendent one, and the Tories are on their death bed. This also comes off the back of recent economic precedent where Johnson's furlough spending was popular and Truss's free market fundamentalism was slaughtered. The setting appears ripe, the stars have aligned, but completely the wrong person is in charge of the Labour party for it. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[RuMoore]

5 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It’s fairly solid labour with a big Lib Dem presence on the council. No real chance of going blue.

I think we’d a Green candidate instead of Plaid at the last election because they did a pact.

Going for the centre ground is short termist. Supporting a party that does that is also short termist.

The Tory right didn’t get their way by backing David Cameron; they got it by backing Farage. I don’t share the view that a vote for a proper left leaning party is a wasted vote at all. 
 

I understand the incrementalism argument, that Labour would be an improvement, but there’s an opportunity cost to accepting that minuscule improvement in exchange for the potential improvement in living standards and social justice that they should be campaigning for.

Lucky for you my area is SNP or Tories at present... Lib Dem vote utterly collapsed in recent years.

I wouldn't really say I support any political party fundamentally and feel comfortable voting for the lesser of two evils at different points. Of course this is extremely controversial and worthy of vitriol but generally speaking I thought Blairs Labour were good, introduced progressive policies and made some noble changes in society. I don't think Starmer will be able to do as good considering the decade + we've had of Tory cost cutting policy but it's certainly better than the current crop of Tories in charge. 

[RuMoore]

2 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Polls don't suggest this. Even a majority of Tory voters support the nationalisation of water in England and Wales, for example (it's already nationalised in Scotland and Northern Ireland). Corbyn-era Labour policies were very popular when polled. Starmer has had no need to do what he's done, winning on socialist policies would be very achievable in the current context. There's no Brexit which wrecked Labour in 2019, there's now a struggling SNP in Scotland rather than an ascendent one, and the Tories are on their death bed. This also comes off the back of recent economic precedent where Johnson's furlough spending was popular and Truss's free market fundamentalism was slaughtered. The setting appears ripe, the stars have aligned, but completely the wrong person is in charge of the Labour party for it. 

I did say generally speaking as in when presented with two options in my life time they've generally went for the centre types. Cameron and May had success from the centre ground as did Blair and Co before. 

You're correct that Labour policy under Corbyn was popular but he wasn't the man to deliver it and voters hated him for multiple reasons. Brexit played a massive part but it wasn't the only factor in his failures, Keir has done well to mitigate these factors and win voters back that would have never entertained Corbyn being in charge, anecdotally speaking moronic voters view "leftys" as a threat to what they believe in and taking Brexit off the table Keir appeals more to these people whereas lazy communist scare tactics worked so easily with Corbyn. 

[Granny Danger]

Democracy is about choice.  Choice is always going to be limited by certain factors, ie the MSM being almost exclusively controlled by vested financial interest and the same MSM reporting on the issues important to those interests and skewing said reporting.

However the biggest obstacle to democracy in the U.K. is FPTP.  This marginalises the interests and voting intentions of millions, it also encourages Labour to vie for the centrist/right-of-centre votes.