Rugby Union

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

13 hours ago, printer said:

Do you think Scotland will have more players in the Lions squad than (i) Ireland and (ii) Wales?

Do you think they should?

No of course we won't. I'm not claiming our squad is better than Ireland's or Wales'. I've praised the quality of welsh players on this forum recently. I think we'd all agree we have the improved but still have the 5th best playing pool. It's how far the gap has closed people disagree on.

I think Scotland have 2/3 guys who could be Lions starters max, 1 who probably will, and another 2 who could realistically get in. So maybe 5 tops from a squad of 35 odd. I do think the gap has closed enough though that Scotland are capable of winning one of these mid cycle six nations, but don't seem to be working towards that. It all just feels aimless tbh, and I think we could be doing better.

Fully understand if folk don't think this team is capable of that but the arguments aren't the most convincing for me. Someone said earlier that Gary Graham was in great form for his club in a top professional league, and wouldn't be on the bench if our best players were available, and this was evidence that our players aren't good enough somehow. Ireland had their fair share of guys out there who are capable of looking out their depth in international rugby.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Genuine Hibs Fan

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

We actually competed well in the scrum today, but for some reason were utterly woeful in the line out....meaning we couldn't build any real periods of possession to put pressure on a pretty poor Ireland side. 

The England game aside, Turner at hooker has been a disaster in such a vital part of the game. Either that or other teams know our line out calls better than we do. 

The lack of possession leads to us being under fairly constant pressure, with the consequence that we commit errors and give penalties away....meaning that it's either a guaranteed 3 points for the opposition or a line out in our own 22 where we get under more pressure, and ....so it continues. 

Townsend and the forward coaching team should have the front 8 and reserves out on the training pitch for 10 hours a day for the next week practicing line out throws. 

And while we're at it, make Ali Price spend 10 hours a day running round the pitch in the pouring rain, just because he's a stupid khunt. 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bob Mahelp

[come on shire]

Best team we've had in a while but discipline is shocking. I'd wager that's down to organisation/communication on the pitch. This in turn could well be a coaching issue. 

That aside don't worry about it. We'll take the positives as we always do. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by come on shire

[John Lambies Doos]

Best team we've had in a while but discipline is shocking. I'd wager that's down to organisation/communication on the pitch. This in turn could well be a coaching issue. 
That aside don't worry about it. We'll take the positives as we always do. 

Pray tell the positives from our last two outings, apologies if you being tongue and cheek. We didn't win the last two games because deep deep deep down we didn't believe we could. We are mentally weak arseholes against the Welsh and Irish; and they feckin know it

[honestly united]

10 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

11 hours ago, come on shire said:

Best team we've had in a while but discipline is shocking. I'd wager that's down to organisation/communication on the pitch. This in turn could well be a coaching issue. 
That aside don't worry about it. We'll take the positives as we always do. 

Pray tell the positives from our last two outings, apologies if you being tongue and cheek. We didn't win the last two games because deep deep deep down we didn't believe we could. We are mentally weak arseholes against the Welsh and Irish; and they feckin know it

For me the problem is player development. In other countries they are coaching kids, along with the general skills, how to win rugby matches. They are also in the most cases playing / developing in an enviroment where winning is key, and they are playing games that mean something. From looking at the Scottish dev pathway apart from those playing in the Scottish private schools system, no one is playing meaningful games in that 16-20 age bracket that breed that win at all cost mentality. We are developing technically good players, but we are not developing winners. I used to play with a guy, who's pre match team talk was along the lines of needing to be a winner, things like he would push past his wife to get out the door first, he wouldn't talk eating dinner to ensure he finished first, etc but that is the mentality we need to instill in the players. Our best players techniclally are as good as Wales or Ireland, they are just not winners.

Its gotten that bad in the youth development, that we got relegated from the Euro U20's (along with Ireland), threw a hissy fit and all the home nations pulled out, just leaving France and Italy playing in it. We do nothing in the U20 6 nations, and have been relegated from the World U20 top tier and are now behind Italy, Fiji and Georgia. I was hoping the Super 6 would start to provide a competition to give these players a decent grounding, and we've seen some benefits in the young guys at Glasgow, but so far it doesn't grab you as a competition players are going to be desperate to win.

 

[ahemps]

2 hours ago, honestly united said:

For me the problem is player development. In other countries they are coaching kids, along with the general skills, how to win rugby matches. They are also in the most cases playing / developing in an enviroment where winning is key, and they are playing games that mean something. From looking at the Scottish dev pathway apart from those playing in the Scottish private schools system, no one is playing meaningful games in that 16-20 age bracket that breed that win at all cost mentality. We are developing technically good players, but we are not developing winners. I used to play with a guy, who's pre match team talk was along the lines of needing to be a winner, things like he would push past his wife to get out the door first, he wouldn't talk eating dinner to ensure he finished first, etc but that is the mentality we need to instill in the players. Our best players techniclally are as good as Wales or Ireland, they are just not winners.

Its gotten that bad in the youth development, that we got relegated from the Euro U20's (along with Ireland), threw a hissy fit and all the home nations pulled out, just leaving France and Italy playing in it. We do nothing in the U20 6 nations, and have been relegated from the World U20 top tier and are now behind Italy, Fiji and Georgia. I was hoping the Super 6 would start to provide a competition to give these players a decent grounding, and we've seen some benefits in the young guys at Glasgow, but so far it doesn't grab you as a competition players are going to be desperate to win.

 

Is this not a problem in itself. If the players in the super 6 don't see it as something to win then they don't have that winning mentality. 

It is now the competition below professional for the best amateur/part time players. it should be seen as a prestigious competition as you are among the best players in the country and competing with players who may go on to play not just at professional but possibly international level.

When I played amateur football I wanted to win every game as I hated getting beat and getting wound up by the opposition. Once you adopt a mentality of not being bothered by defeat then you become a soft touch and easily bullied by those who want to win at all costs.

[East Coast Warrior]

It seems harsh to criticise Super6 as being something players don't want to win when there's never even been a completed season for it yet!

 

(Stick the boot in for the lack of a Glasgow team instead!)

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Anyone try to get World Cup tickets today ?

Sat in the queue for 4 hours, then when I get in and choose a Scotland game pack, nothing goes into your shopping basket. Sat here refreshing for an hour, before the site eventually tells me that all categotries are sold out. 

Complete shambles. what was the feckin point ?

[Mark Connolly]

1 hour ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Anyone try to get World Cup tickets today ?

Sat in the queue for 4 hours, then when I get in and choose a Scotland game pack, nothing goes into your shopping basket. Sat here refreshing for an hour, before the site eventually tells me that all categotries are sold out. 

Complete shambles. what was the feckin point ?

The Irish and Welsh fans will have got your tickets due to their mindset.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

1 hour ago, Mark Connolly said:

The Irish and Welsh fans will have got your tickets due to their mindset.

They are laughing at him thinking he can buy tickets to the World Cup

[Dunning1874]

You can debate the relative merits of Scotland's players v Ireland & Wales, to what the extent the relative lack of depth makes things more challenging and to what extent the weak, losing, self-pitying, self-destructive mentality is down to the players themselves rather than the coaching. What you can't debate is that Townsend has the best group of players a Scotland coach has had to work with in 20 years.

In Vern Cotter's last 6N in charge we had three wins and two defeats - home wins v Italy, Ireland and Wales, a 6 point loss in Paris and an absolutely disastrous thumping at Twickenham. You can debate whether three wins is just the absolute ceiling for Scotland with the players at our disposal, but Townsend has never bettered this.

In terms of progress we are less likely to collapse away from home than we were, we can actually win away on occasion and Townsend clearly has Eddie Jones on toast with an excellent record v England. Results at Twickenham aren't something to be downplayed and this is hugely impressive.

Five games v Wales, four defeats. Under Cotter we'd lost twice in three, with the defeats being by three and four points having had a decade of hammerings from them previously. Townsend took over and we were back to being thumped by them initially - getting back to defeats within a score rather than capitulations like 2018 isn't progress, it's just reversing to where Cotter had us. Winning in Cardiff was a big result but this year's tournament shows it was another footnote rather than something we're actually going to build on.

Six games v Ireland, six defeats. Final result within a score twice. It's not just going backwards from Cotter, it's worse than Robinson and Hadden.

Those Ireland games include a total capitulation as he presided over our worst ever World Cup. He survived that abject humiliation, with the argument that progress was being made based on the idea that we'd toughened up and become more streetwise in the aftermath of that tournament - more structure, less throwing the ball around, this is why we were now only losing games by 7 points or fewer and we were nearly there. This though isn't progress or an improvement on where we were pre-Townsend, it's only taking us back to where we were under Cotter.

Of course we get individual great performances like Twickenham which Cotter showed no indication of achieving, but then we follow it up with self-destruction v Wales and our worst performance since the World Cup v Ireland.

There's no sign of lasting progress here and there's no way we get out of a World Cup group containing Ireland in two years with him in charge. Persisting with Townsend now amounts to writing off the next two and a half years.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

26 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

You can debate the relative merits of Scotland's players v Ireland & Wales, to what the extent the relative lack of depth makes things more challenging and to what extent the weak, losing, self-pitying, self-destructive mentality is down to the players themselves rather than the coaching. What you can't debate is that Townsend has the best group of players a Scotland coach has had to work with in 20 years.

In Vern Cotter's last 6N in charge we had three wins and two defeats - home wins v Italy, Ireland and Wales, a 6 point loss in Paris and an absolutely disastrous thumping at Twickenham. You can debate whether three wins is just the absolute ceiling for Scotland with the players at our disposal, but Townsend has never bettered this.

In terms of progress we are less likely to collapse away from home than we were, we can actually win away on occasion and Townsend clearly has Eddie Jones on toast with an excellent record v England. Results at Twickenham aren't something to be downplayed and this is hugely impressive.

Five games v Wales, four defeats. Under Cotter we'd lost twice in three, with the defeats being by three and four points having had a decade of hammerings from them previously. Townsend took over and we were back to being thumped by them initially - getting back to defeats within a score rather than capitulations like 2018 isn't progress, it's just reversing to where Cotter had us. Winning in Cardiff was a big result but this year's tournament shows it was another footnote rather than something we're actually going to build on.

Six games v Ireland, six defeats. Final result within a score twice. It's not just going backwards from Cotter, it's worse than Robinson and Hadden.

Those Ireland games include a total capitulation as he presided over our worst ever World Cup. He survived that abject humiliation, with the argument that progress was being made based on the idea that we'd toughened up and become more streetwise in the aftermath of that tournament - more structure, less throwing the ball around, this is why we were now only losing games by 7 points or fewer and we were nearly there. This though isn't progress or an improvement on where we were pre-Townsend, it's only taking us back to where we were under Cotter.

Of course we get individual great performances like Twickenham which Cotter showed no indication of achieving, but then we follow it up with self-destruction v Wales and our worst performance since the World Cup v Ireland.

There's no sign of lasting progress here and there's no way we get out of a World Cup group containing Ireland in two years with him in charge. Persisting with Townsend now amounts to writing off the next two and a half years.

Alarm bells should have been ringing when he effectively chucked the whole style of play in the bin months before a World Cup. Ok the "fastest rugby in the world" had some clear deficiencies but it's better than what we got, a confused team who clearly weren't comfortable with what they were being asked to do. 

The early form of his time in charge though meant he had credit in the bank. When De Villiers and Tandy came in and improved their areas of the game I was hopeful again, but we're not progressing past where we were last year and the defence has slipped again in the last few games. We've already conceded more tries with 2 games to go than we conceded in total last year. 

We don't seem to be building to anything in particular, and we regularly look less prepared for specific games than our opposition. O'Connell getting all the plaudits for the lineout work, we looked like we had no ideas. That's literally a difference in coaching and analysis that screwed the game for us, before we get into the air or the breakdown.

Absolutely understand and agree that we don't have the same player pool as Ireland or Wales. Doesn't mean that Townsend is getting, or shows signs of getting, the best out of this group. I'd be interested to hear why folk think he is, what are they seeing that we're not? 

 

[honestly united]

7 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Alarm bells should have been ringing when he effectively chucked the whole style of play in the bin months before a World Cup. Ok the "fastest rugby in the world" had some clear deficiencies but it's better than what we got, a confused team who clearly weren't comfortable with what they were being asked to do. 

The early form of his time in charge though meant he had credit in the bank. When De Villiers and Tandy came in and improved their areas of the game I was hopeful again, but we're not progressing past where we were last year and the defence has slipped again in the last few games. We've already conceded more tries with 2 games to go than we conceded in total last year. 

We don't seem to be building to anything in particular, and we regularly look less prepared for specific games than our opposition. O'Connell getting all the plaudits for the lineout work, we looked like we had no ideas. That's literally a difference in coaching and analysis that screwed the game for us, before we get into the air or the breakdown.

Absolutely understand and agree that we don't have the same player pool as Ireland or Wales. Doesn't mean that Townsend is getting, or shows signs of getting, the best out of this group. I'd be interested to hear why folk think he is, what are they seeing that we're not? 

 

I think the draw at Twickenham sums up both Townsends coaching and the players. Periods of being dreadful, followed by periods of utter brilliance, but finished off by ultimately not getting the wins required.

I see the Welsh players have come out and said they are glad Pivac has stuck by his game plan as its now come good and they are one game away from a Grand Slam after being written off in the Autumn. When you look at Scotland, we were solid last year, defensively sound, just not scoring enough, we were a few tweaks away from being in contention. We won away at Wales, France and Ireland in the Autumn wsan't great but we were without Russell and Hasting at 10. You then get a performance like England which is the stuff of dreams. Dominating up  front, and looking more dangerous in attack. But its been downhill since then, England being fairly dreadful probably takes some sheen off the performance but we would have beaten Wales bar the sending off / indiscipline which you cant blame the coaching for that. Against Ireland I dont think we even had any systems, it looked like 15 guys out for a run about having never met before, yet still came within 3 minutes of getting something out the game. It was flashes of excellent play, with large amounts of being bettered by a not very good Irish team.

Some of the blame has to lie with Townsend for changing the systems and styles of play so often that the players dont have a settled systems to play, was the fastest rugby in the world the correct choice, we will never know - it was good to watch and fitted the players we had, would the more pragmatic approach eventually come good, we will never know. It just looks like we are in a bit of limbo inbetween at the moment and the players are not sure what they are meant to be doing.

[GAD]

CJ Stander has retired! That's a Lion's place up for grabs.

[John Lambies Doos]

We are two years away from a WC, Townsend needs to step down now. He's a good guy but failed as Scotland coach. We need someone who gets the best out of the players both in ability and mindset; and this unfortunately is not GT.

[honestly united]

28 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

We are two years away from a WC, Townsend needs to step down now. He's a good guy but failed as Scotland coach. We need someone who gets the best out of the players both in ability and mindset; and this unfortunately is not GT.

I'll go with the standard response to whenever someone calls for the managers head in who do you think we could get in to do a better job? Being an Ayr fan sometimes the relief of removing an underperforming manager is soured by the reality of the shortlist to replace them!

I wouldn't want either Cockerill or Wilson anywhere near the job, although im sure there are a few NZ / Aussie / SA's that would do a decent job, i've not been close enough to SH rugby to know if there are any standout candidates, there doesn't seem to be anyone that sticks out. Baxter is probably the standout coach in england, but should be next in line after Eddie leaves.

[John Lambies Doos]

I'll go with the standard response to whenever someone calls for the managers head in who do you think we could get in to do a better job? Being an Ayr fan sometimes the relief of removing an underperforming manager is soured by the reality of the shortlist to replace them!
I wouldn't want either Cockerill or Wilson anywhere near the job, although im sure there are a few NZ / Aussie / SA's that would do a decent job, i've not been close enough to SH rugby to know if there are any standout candidates, there doesn't seem to be anyone that sticks out. Baxter is probably the standout coach in england, but should be next in line after Eddie leaves.

Gatland would do a better job, but I'm sure he's not interested. He had a disaster at Super 14 but he's a great NH style coach. He would make them more stubborn, resilient and believe in themselves. We don't have bad players, we just lack emotional control

[come on shire]

A bit of the problem involves the country not being "angry" enough after poor campaigns. The same could be said of Scotland's football team. 

The only journalist who gives Scotland a kicking after the mediocrity is Tom English. When England got put out their own WC in 2015 the journalists gave them a kicking. When your nation expects better it gets your head out the clouds. 

However, this is the best forum for discussing honest frustration. On the Scottish Rugby forum on FB, after another defeat there's too many fans happy to "focus on the positives", let us know "we're almost there as the scores are always close now" and "be positive". If you moan about form and coaching etc you just get a row... 

[ajwffc]

10 hours ago, GAD said:

CJ Stander has retired! That's a Lion's place up for grabs.

and has pissed of the Irish by saying he is moving home to SA

[hearthammer]

That's it started with the push for all Are Boys to be in the Lions starting line up

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9374271/Ireland-vs-England-throws-subplot-Johnny-Sexton-vs-George-Ford-Lions-battle-No-10.html

Finn Russell is being effectively classed as second rate by this shower.  More to come as the tour, wherever it ends up, gets closer.