Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[itzdrk]

18 minutes ago, virginton said:

Historians do not just accept any crackpot 'first hand account' of an event as legitimate evidence champ. Thanks for playing anyway.

So none of them are religious?

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Historians do not just accept any crackpot 'first hand account' of an event as legitimate evidence champ. Thanks for playing anyway.

Where as great commentary like the President was in danger because he was in a classroom 1000 miles from the major east coast cities is a fantastic argument that there was no prior knowledge of an attack.

Any way this is an aside to your shocking and without any evidence claim that anyone saying Israel had prior knowledge of the attack was an anti-semite. 

[PossilYM]

10 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

Rumours Palestinians are holding Green Brigade banners.

Upside down?

[Granny Danger]

So killing Palestinians is on a par with killing Nazis according to this GOP congressman.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/republican-compares-palestinian-civilians-to-nazis-as-gaza-death-toll-climbs_uk_6543538de4b06bc01e22f16f

What makes the whole situation more unreal and absurd is that the overwhelming majority of anti-Semites in the USA are undoubtedly supporters of extreme right-wing fanatics like Mast.

 

[vikingTON]

12 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Where as great commentary like the President was in danger because he was in a classroom 1000 miles from the major east coast cities is a fantastic argument that there was no prior knowledge of an attack.

What would be the benefit to US Intelligence to have their Commander in Chief gurning like a clown in front of TV cameras instead of responding to a national emergency? Why - if intelligence services had knowledge that an attack by Al Qaeda was imminent - would they assume that the attacks they knew about were the only attacks planned? Which is where your '1,000 miles from safety' claim falls apart. 

And what benefit accrued to US intelligence by having a fucking plane smash into the Pentagon and arbitrarily destroying and killing key US infrastructure and personnel? 

This is why historians apply logic and reason to weigh 'first-hand accounts' and bin the ones that are clearly nonsense. Just as a court discounts 'eyewitness testimony' that does not match the rest of the evidence, or stand up to scrutiny. 

Quote

Any way this is an aside to your shocking and without any evidence claim that anyone saying Israel had prior knowledge of the attack was an anti-semite.

Anyone saying that Israel's security services knew about the attack and made a conscious decision to let Hamas proceed is either an anti-Semite, or an absolute fucking moron. 

You can sort yourself into whichever category you choose. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by vikingTON

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

At the end of the day jet fuel can’t melt steel beams.

[Jaggy McJagface]

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22316466/
 

Yet another example of a senior Israeli spokesperson ranting and raving like an unhinged lunatic. Skip to 7:45 for a complete heads gone.

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

At the end of the day jet fuel can’t melt steel beams.

Doesn't need to melt it, just needs to  weaken it.

[GHF-23]

The catch-22 with Security Service conspiracies is that the more believable/confirmed information both feeds and helps to debunk the more wild stuff. There is enough pretty reliable evidence that the US security services made a colossal cock-up with 9/11, that they were aware of some of the players and lost track of them/failed to share intelligence at a direct perpetrator level and didn't take seriously enough at a higher level their ability to achieve something on that scale. Kind of quite rightly too - crashing multiple airliners into two of the most iconic buildings in the NY skyline in the middle of the day is a bit of a fucking escalation from even the atrocities they had previously committed.

That feeds into the overall suspicion but why would we be allowed to know about that if they're covering up some more elaborate, deliberate failure to apply direct foreknowledge? And as VT says why would the Mayor of SF be forewarned while GWB is at a primary school? Why would they allow an attack on the Pentagon? Just doesn't make sense. There's enough confirmed/obvious cases of blowback and huge mistakes by security services for people to criticise and look into without finding a way to consider every major attack a false flag. 

It's a particularly US affliction that seems to spread here, with a decent chunk of their left pretty implicitly captured by it as a founding principle of their politics. I guess when you're the hub of an Empire defined in part by a Cold War and where extremely fishy things have been happening since the wave of assassinations in the '60s, COINTELPRO, MKULTRA et al it makes a bit of sense. Not a particularly healthy way to see the world imo though. Weirdly, there's a "you can't have a discussion about immigration!!!1!" element to it where believers say these things aren't allowed to be discussed when a great deal of even mainstream media around spies and security services is also very sceptical and open about the nefarious nature of them. 

To bring it back to this thread, just to take one reason why it's stupid, why would Israeli security services want to get itself in a situation where it torches all the progress it's made with the Gulf and kill 1400 of its own citizens? Like what's a rational explanation for that? They just fucked up - see the FT report on Hamas' military from the other day - they saw the recent Hamas online propaganda which said "look what we can do" and thought it was a sign of weakness rather than preparedness. 

That being said I don't know where antisemitism comes into it, unless the implication is that a false flag or refusing to act on intelligence is a particularly Jewish thing to do rather than a complaint nutters have about every Security Service. In which case I must have missed that. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by GHF-23

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

45 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Doesn't need to melt it, just needs to  weaken it.

[SlipperyP]

Been away for a few days, so just catching up...

so far i know

1. Hamas are banned from Parkhead
2. The IDf knew about Barbarossa
3. The Green Brigade didn't fly on 9/11 because of some San Francisco hippy.  

 

[vikingTON]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/02/ireland-criticism-israel-eu-palestinian-rights

An interesting account of views across the water. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

Anyone saying that Israel's security services knew about the attack and made a conscious decision to let Hamas proceed is either an anti-Semite, or an absolute fucking moron. 

You can sort yourself into whichever category you choose. 

Is there a both option?

[GHF-23]

Just now, virginton said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/02/ireland-criticism-israel-eu-palestinian-rights

An interesting account of views across the water. 

The Guardian/Observer is so funny in they have just as dogshit regular columnists as the rest of the UK press but you can't discount CiF completely because they do have very good guests/analysis from some of their editors is great. 

[Cheese]

55 minutes ago, GHF-23 said:

That being said I don't know where antisemitism comes into it, unless the implication is that a false flag is a particularly Jewish thing to do rather than a complaint nutters have about every Security Service. In which case I must have missed that. 

There's strains of 9/11 conspiracy theories that have both Jewish money funding the attacks and Jews not turning up/being told to stay home for work that day. In addition to the usual NWO, Elders of Zion stuff.

[Granny Danger]

So two consecutive bombings of a refugee centre and not a peep from our politicians.  The longer it goes on the less they will say anything new about the events as they unfold; they will just parrot the ‘Israel has a right to defend itself’ line and consciously ignore everything else.

[GHF-23]

4 minutes ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

There's strains of 9/11 conspiracy theories that have both Jewish money funding the attacks and Jews not turning up/being told to stay home for work that day. In addition to the usual NWO, Elders of Zion stuff.

Aye I know that, was meaning more the recent attacks. Thinking about it I see the connection a bit more

[scottsdad]

Trouble brewing in academia because of this. 

UKRI, which funds most UK research, brought together a panel of people on equality, diversity and inclusion. A couple of members of this committee on twitter made some comments about the conflict. Specifically, a link to a Guardian article about Suella Braverman wanting police to crackdown on protestors - one academic replied saying that was disturbing. Another academic wrote something else also. 

Michelle Donelan (the science minister) then wrote to UKRI quite hysterically demanding that the whole committee be removed...and the UKRI folded like a pack of cards. They have suspended the entire committee and will look at how it managed EDI in future. 

2500 academics have signed an open letter condemning this. There are calls to boycott reviewing bids (which would essentially shut down university research). 

The same Michelle Donelan who has spoken in the past about the need for free speech in universities.

[mathematics]

That committee should tell the UKRI, and the minister, to go f**k themselves, in the most diverse way possible.

[scottsdad]

Just now, mathematics said:

That committee should tell the UKRI, and the minister, to go f**k themselves, in the most diverse way possible.

The union has, at least

https://www.ucu.org.uk/media/14171/Michelle-Donelan-UKIRacademic-freedom-letter-30-Oct-23/pdf/20231030_Michelle_Donelan.pdf