welshbairn Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 .. so blaming 'the Jews' for Palestine is okay" Glad we've cleared that one up. Just to warn you, people have been accused of anti-semitism for using the P word. My link 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 You specifically referred to Stormont. So I call ''crap''. Eh whit? Stormont was, successively, the host of Home Rule until it fell to pieces, and then the current Northern Irish assembly. In the former case, Sinn Fein was a political entity that still had links to the IRA and then informally to its splinter groups. It is also well established that there were very close links, if not direct overlap, of membership of the IRA Army Council and the political leadership of Sinn Fein, with people like Gerry Adams. Understood in the proper context I used it, you would see I was saying that even if those relations had remained explicit and formal between the political and military wings of the resistance movement, it still wouldn't change the reality of it being a militia or paramilitary rather than a state actor, and as such the fighters were "militants" and not state defence forces. Put another way, the UVF could set up a political party in Northern Ireland and win an absolute majority at Stormont, it doesn't mean they become the British (or Northern Irish) Army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Is it twice or three times that there has been official pogroms against jews within these Isles? No idea. I'm not sure what relevance this has to me pointing out that the fact people in the West blame "the Muslims" for 9/11 doesn't excuse people blaming "the Jews" for the occupation of Gaza. Just to warn you, people have been accused of anti-semitism for using the P word. My link Top stuff. So I'm a Zionist anti-semite going by this thread! Glad we've clear that up 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Put another way, the UVF could set up a political party in Northern Ireland and win an absolute majority at Stormont, it doesn't mean they become the British (or Northern Irish) Army. No they couldn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Eh whit? Stormont was, successively, the host of Home Rule until it fell to pieces, and then the current Northern Irish assembly. In the former case, Sinn Fein was a political entity that still had links to the IRA and then informally to its splinter groups. It is also well established that there were very close links, if not direct overlap, of membership of the IRA Army Council and the political leadership of Sinn Fein, with people like Gerry Adams. Understood in the proper context I used it, you would see I was saying that even if those relations had remained explicit and formal between the political and military wings of the resistance movement, it still wouldn't change the reality of it being a militia or paramilitary rather than a state actor, and as such the fighters were "militants" and not state defence forces. Put another way, the UVF could set up a political party in Northern Ireland and win an absolute majority at Stormont, it doesn't mean they become the British (or Northern Irish) Army. Gerry Adams went with the Provos (not the IRA or Sinn Fein) in the split over 40 years ago...........you lose at internet 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 No they couldn't. Yes they could. There is nothing a) in electoral law or b) the single transferable vote system, to prevent a political party winning a majority of the seats at the Stormont Assembly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Is it twice or three times that there has been official pogroms against jews within these Isles? Not sure I'm only aware of their expulsion in 1290 from England and that they were not permitted re-entry until Cromwell took over with the help of the wealthy Dutch-Jewish bankers that funded him. They were expelled from most European nations at some time during their history due to their "USURY" bankrupting entire nations, causing famines, etc. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Yes they could. There is nothing a) in electoral law or b) the single transferable vote system, to prevent a political party winning a majority of the seats at the Stormont Assembly. Apart from voters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Gerry Adams went with the Provos (not the IRA or Sinn Fein) in the split over 40 years ago...........you lose at internet You seem to be under the impression that the IRA and Official IRA were the same organisation. They weren't. The Provision and Official IRA were two completely separate bodies from the organisation which broke up in '69. When we're talking about the IRA here, therefore, we're working off the understanding that we're broadly including both successor groups, irrespective of which one people happened to be a part of. So the Provisional IRA was, for the purposes of the analogy I was drawing, still a paramilitary organisation with links (albeit not constitutionally formalised) to Sinn Fein. Note also that he was politically active within Sinn Fein pretty much throughout this period, including when he was on hunger strike, albeit his main activities within the Republican movement was within the paramilitary groups broadly umbrellaed as the IRA. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 You seem to be under the impression that the IRA and Official IRA were the same organisation. They weren't. The Provision and Official IRA were two completely separate bodies from the organisation which broke up in '69. When we're talking about the IRA here, therefore, we're working off the understanding that we're broadly including both successor groups, irrespective of which one people happened to be a part of. So the Provisional IRA was, for the purposes of the analogy I was drawing, still a paramilitary organisation with links (albeit not constitutionally formalised) to Sinn Fein. Note also that he was politically active within Sinn Fein pretty much throughout this period, including when he was on hunger strike, albeit his main activities within the Republican movement was within the paramilitary groups broadly umbrellaed as the IRA. No we are not. Adams is considered a traitor to many in what you would term the ''IRA Camp''. And Sinn Fein split the same as the Provos/IRa /Free church/Free church continuing type thing. The IRA was ''effectively'' a state sanctioned security force during the bad times of 21-22, and even Collins commanded/used Brit artillery units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 No we are not. Adams is considered a traitor to many in what you would term the ''IRA Camp''. And Sinn Fein split the same as the Provos/IRa /Free church/Free church continuing type thing. The IRA was ''effectively'' a state sanctioned security force during the bad times of 21-22, and even Collins commanded/used Brit artillery units. What people within the IRA think of Gerry Adams is really neither here nor there. There were links between the paramilitary organisations assuming the IRA tag or variants thereof and the political activities of Sinn Fein in the 60s to the present day. That was the purpose for which the analogy was drawn. What the IRA was prior to the establishment of the Irish Free state is really neither here nor there. It wasn't the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland's sovereign institutions that controlled the actions of the republican paramilitary groups during the Troubles. They were not a state actor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 What people within the IRA think of Gerry Adams is really neither here nor there. There were links between the paramilitary organisations assuming the IRA tag or variants thereof and the political activities of Sinn Fein in the 60s to the present day. That was the purpose for which the analogy was drawn. What the IRA was prior to the establishment of the Irish Free state is really neither here nor there. It wasn't the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland's sovereign institutions that controlled the actions of the republican paramilitary groups during the Troubles. They were not a state actor. :lol: oh Lordy give up digging..... You brought up ''Stormont'' and the Sinn Fein/IRA connection. I questioned that, you googled ''stormont'' and tried to justify. Again questioned and you gibber and go back to the Troubles, I feckin E, when Sinn Fein and the IRA parted company. The IRA were a State sanctioned paramilitary. Hence the 'bad times'. Why the feck you seem to want to commentate on Israel is beyond me, apart from you being a wee Uni tosser with dreams of the 'Box Office'' ............ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 What people within the IRA think of Gerry Adams is really neither here nor there. There were links between the paramilitary organisations assuming the IRA tag or variants thereof and the political activities of Sinn Fein in the 60s to the present day. That was the purpose for which the analogy was drawn. What the IRA was prior to the establishment of the Irish Free state is really neither here nor there. It wasn't the Irish Free State or the Republic of Ireland's sovereign institutions that controlled the actions of the republican paramilitary groups during the Troubles. They were not a state actor. Ever heard of 'False Flags'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 And afore anyone says ''what has the Irish crap to do with Israel'', it is because it rips assunder Ad-libs rhetoric. If he is sooooooooooo wrong on recent events next to his own midden, he has hee-haw chance of being correct in a wider sphere............. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 :lol: oh Lordy give up digging..... You brought up ''Stormont'' and the Sinn Fein/IRA connection. I questioned that, you googled ''stormont'' and tried to justify. Eh, no, I'm well acquainted with the context in which this takes place, having read quite extensively (just 3-4 months ago) about much of the background to the Sunningdale Agreement. I have taken considerable interest in the development of home rule and independence in the Irish context for several years now, as it's a critical part of the devolution settlement and at the heart of quite recent and important constitutional legal importance (if you want to read about Robinson v SSNI, feel free). A reference to Stormont is a reference generally to both the settlement which failed and the one we have now. Again questioned and you gibber and go back to the Troubles, I feckin E, when Sinn Fein and the IRA parted company. The point at which the two organisations formally became separate. Prior to that, of course, they were very closely linked. But had Sinn Fein won seats or in any sense come to control the Parliament of Northern Ireland that would not have meant that the IRA was then the Northern Irish Army, which is the same reason why Hamas' military wing is not the Palestinian Army. Understand? The IRA were a State sanctioned paramilitary. Hence the 'bad times'. After the establishment of the Irish Free State the IRA cannot in any sense be said to have been an organisation emanating from or the legitimate agent of, any state. On the other hand, it had continuing links to the political republican movement through bodies like Sinn Fein, and notwithstanding the split in the IRA and Sinn Fein in the 70s, there was still overlap in membership and activity among the groups. The point is neither the formal links prior to '70 nor the informal links afterwards, meant that the IRA or any derivatives were in any sense legitimated by or under the direction of, any state. Why the feck you seem to want to commentate on Israel is beyond me, apart from you being a wee Uni tosser with dreams of the 'Box Office'' ............ I'm not "commentating" on Israel. I'm responding to the specific question of whether the comments of an MP about "the Jews" were appropriate in form or substance and whether the consequential cries of "Zionist conspiracy" by Granny Danger about people calling armed off-shoots of Hamas "militants" are in any sense valid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'm not "commentating" on Israel. I'm responding to the specific question of whether the comments of an MP about "the Jews" were appropriate in form or substance and whether the consequential cries of "Zionist conspiracy" by Granny Danger about people calling armed off-shoots of Hamas "militants" are in any sense valid. When did I use the term Zionist conspiracy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Not sure I'm only aware of their expulsion in 1290 from England and that they were not permitted re-entry until Cromwell took over with the help of the wealthy Dutch-Jewish bankers that funded him. They were expelled from most European nations at some time during their history due to their "USURY" bankrupting entire nations, causing famines, etc. I wouldn't say this to anyone else on this forum, but could you just f*** off you anti-Semitic c***. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) Eh, no, I'm well acquainted with the context in which this takes place, having read quite extensively (just 3-4 months ago) The point at which the two organisations formally became separate. Prior to that, of course, they were very closely linked. But had Sinn Fein won seats or in any sense come to control the Parliament of Northern Ireland that would not have meant that the IRA was then the Northern Irish Army, which is the same reason why Hamas' military wing is not the Palestinian Army. Understand? :lol: IT WAS A ''PARAMILITARY FORCE'' in the South you dumbass, sanctioned by Westminister. After the establishment of the Irish Free State the IRA cannot in any sense be said to have been an organisation emanating from or the legitimate agent of, any state. On the other hand, it had continuing links to the political republican movement through bodies like Sinn Fein, and notwithstanding the split in the IRA and Sinn Fein in the 70s, there was still overlap in membership and activity among the groups. The point is neither the formal links prior to '70 nor the informal links afterwards, meant that the IRA or any derivatives were in any sense legitimated by or under the direction of, any state. See above I'm not "commentating" on Israel. I'm responding to the specific question of whether the comments of an MP about "the Jews" were appropriate in form or substance and whether the consequential cries of "Zionist conspiracy" by Granny Danger about people calling armed off-shoots of Hamas "militants" are in any sense valid. :lol: Edited January 27, 2013 by wunfellaff 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-18 ICBM Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I wouldn't say this to anyone else on this forum, but could you just f*** off you anti-Semitic c***. Someone hates the truth! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Someone hates the truth! Nope. I just hate anti-Semitic c***s like you. I don't mind people who disagree with Israel's actions. C***s like you hate the Jews as a people, and quite frankly you are just scum. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.