Yoss

Quite, that's an important point. (And yet even operating mostly with all that evidence which we now know to have been systematically doctored, he still largely exonerated the fans, and that quote that HB keeps using was a preamble to him dismissing it as a significant factor.)

Just working my way through the report now, the opening of chapter 5 just says (It then goes on to say that, having now seen "all of the relevant records" - the implication, I think, being that the coroner didn't - this cut-off is unsustainable.

Indeed, and they've changed in large part as a response to Hillsborough. It's partly why I'm wary of singling out individuals for blame, there was a whole culture at fault, not limited to that ground or that police force.

Ticketless fans was not a contributory factor. There is no suggestion that there were too many fans gaining access to the ground, only that there were too many in the central pen, because there was no one directing them into the other two pens which had loads of room. It's hard to believe that more than twenty years after Taylor scotched most of this shit, and now that a new report has done so even more emphatically, people are apparently still having to be told this sort of stuff. (Edit: apologies for the tone of this post, wasn't meaning to be getting at you, particularly. Just been getting a bit frustrated with some of it, generally.)

Perhaps you're reading something more unusual and violent into the word "pushing" than I am, but of course that's normal behaviour. People who have got into a football match and are not yet onto the terracing where they can see it are going to be trying to get to the terraces. Sure, if it's already obvious that there's insufficient room, that there's a serious crush, it'd be another thing, but that's not how crowd dynamics work - the ones at the back who are simply trying to get to where they want to be don't and can't have any idea that there's anything serious or unusual happening further forward. There's nothing "disgraceful" going on there (and nor did Taylor suggest so, that's only your riff on it).

It's pretty similar. The barrier at Ibrox didn't collapse for no reason, it did so because the crush was already underway - and as at Hillsborough there's no need to posit that the people at the top of the slope were putting on any undue pressure - they thought they were just in the normal sort-of-queue to get out (or in, in Hillsborough's case). In both cases poor stadium design, inadequate / collapsing barriers / bad luck and a host of other factors combined to turn the sort of unpleasant crush (which, in both venues, had already occurred on previous occasions) into disaster.

Okay. For the record, that bit I've highlighted is a myth as well, though it was one that had considerable circulation, and it was the way the disaster was first told to me as well. You're right, it doesn't take that many to create a panic, in the wrong circumstances. But those "not many" don't have to be doing anything particularly extraordinary, unusual or irresponsible, in the wrong circumstances, either. At ibrox people were simply trying to leave down a stairway, as they did every match. No one inidividual was doing anything wrong or applying undue force, but they didn't need to be for it to become a crush.

We're going to go round in circles here, but once again - crushes are not created by a small number of people within it exercising excessive force, they're created by people just trying to get from one place to another, having no idea that there's any push further forward. Ibrox the same, people were trying to make their way to the exit, just as they normally would. There was no excessive or abnormal force, just the kind of numbers of people that can quickly be very dangerous through the "fault" of no one involved, if something happens or if the set-up is not properly designed to deal with it. (Serious question btw, HB, not trying to trap you here, but do you think Ibrox was caused by irresponsibility on the part of some of the fans as well?)

Again, there was nothing abnormal or unusual (or unusually disgraceful) about Liverpool fans behaviour on that day, they behaved just as football crowds do. (If you think all such crowds are "disgraceful" then fair enough, but I'll leave you to it.) I have to agree with you there though. Again, only in the sense of trying to get somewhere. People were arriving at the top of the terrace, other people were arriving behind them, it doesn't need a "push" in any exceptional sense over and beyond that to create a crush.

Maybe you meant something different by it. What happened at Hillsborough, as at Ibrox, was lots of people all tried to get somewhere at once, having no idea what was happening in front. That's a push, if you like. Or not, if you don't want to call it that, I'm not bothered about the choice of word. If you meant to imply that there were some fans who were "pushing" in the sense of deliberately using considerable force to try and get forward knowing there was already little or no space to do so then no, that's not what happened and it's not how these things work. The crush is created by the addition of new people at the back who aren't, by themselves, applying any sort of abnormal force and have no idea of there being a problem further forward.

So is everyone saying that if they're ever admitted to a gig / football match / any other such event, once they're through thr turnstyle they make no attempt to get to the arena from which the concert / match / whatever is visible, you just stand there inside the gate saying nah, actually I don't think I'll bother? That's all I mean by "pushing". And it's all it takes, in the wrong circumstances, for it to become very dangerous.

I've read about half a dozen posts on the thread and realised that if I read any more it's going to make me a bit angry. I am pleased that the truth has now more or less been acknowledged, even if there was not really any excuse for anyone not to have been aware of it already. I'm not so bothered about whether or not there are prosecutions, and I'd be wary of scapegoating a small number of individuals for such widespread institutional failings, but yesterday was a good day.

Much better episode that I'd expected / feared, based on the premise and trailers. Good fun, it was. And it was (in a roundabout sort of way) good to see the Doctor willing to kill again, instead of some of the hand-wringing bollocks we've had at times during new-Who.

Cracking episode, that, nicely-paced and a reasonably tight plot. And the best thing about it was the new girl, or at least her sparring with the Doctor. Which bodes well. (Amy has been a pretty good companion over the piece, but I've had enough of the Amy / Rory slushiness and won't be sorry to see the back of it.)

(By the by, as for Brewster "screwing us over" - was he not out of contract? In these post-Bosman days he'd have gone for nothing and we'd have thought nothing of it. )

That the one with two late goals, the second of them coming after Burns got clattered? I remember being a bit angry about that one at the time.

I suppose they're making some effort to compensate for the arbitrary nature of where the decades fall. (Imagine you'd had to pick six candidates for the decade from, say, 96-06.)

It's tricky to narrow it down to six, but Paul Browne? I can only think that's a token effort to span the whole decade.

There's no way you can presume to tell, in a still picture, how she's reacting. (Nor could you read anything into her lack of reaction even if there were more to go on, anyway. You probably have to get used to taking some shit, and putting up with it.) Not that I'm looking to condemn them for it either, particularly, the lack of context works both ways and if the club are happy with the explanations offered then fair enough, it's their call.

We thought of that beforehand.

What else would you expect her to do, jump straight into her wheelchair and start kicking shit out the two of them?

I've got the complete league cup final on tape somewhere, haven't watched that in a long time.

Don't think I'd ever seen the highlights of that game. I'd forgotten the goals apart from Holmes's header (and subsequent badge-kissing). I remember Fergie being uncharacteristically quiet until giving us a proper earful as we were on our way out. "Oh, Jimmy's secure in his job, yeah." Hmmm. Cheers for these, dan.

John Martin is their star player. Remember him?

Replace good with "fucking outstanding" and that'd be about right.