[Pyramid 2019/2020]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Seems like National wins

 

When you did this comparison, did you take the Top 20's average against the other teams in the Top 20, or against all teams in their division?  Because this would also make a difference.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

So, similar sized countries all have totally different league setups? Gotcha. Cheers.

You are either deliberately misconstruing what I say, or having a laugh.  Similar sized countries all have a fully inclusive pyramid, and they all regionalise, mostly at Tier 3.  You did say compare with similar-sized countries - I did, and the results are conclusive.

Also, if 53 of 55 countries regionalise at Tier 4 or above, why should Scotland be any different, especially as bigger countries than us are doing it.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

14 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

We're not England. We have a tenth of the population. Why do you find this surprising? Try comparing us to somewhere like Finland, Slovakia or Croatia.

I was responding to a post that seemed to suggest I was making up the fact that Tier 5 attendances in England are higher then Tier 3 attendances in Scotland.  I wasn't expressing surprise.

But if you insist:

Slovakia has a fully functional pyramid down to Tier 8, with regionalisation starting from Tier 2.
Finland has a fully functional pyramid down to Tier 8, with regionalisation starting from Tier 3.
Croatia has a fully functional pyramid down to Tier 7, with regionalisation starting from Tier 3.
Switzerland has a fully functional pyramid down to Tier 9, with regionalisation starting from Tier 4.
Austria has a fully functional pyramid down to Tier 10, with regionalisation starting from Tier 3.

The only countries in Europe that have regionalisation starting from Tier 5 or below are England (starting at Tier 6) and Scotland (Starting at Tier 5).

So, Scotland is clearly either unique and trailblazing, or doing something wrong.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

3 minutes ago, Cornishman said:

Average English 'tier 5' attendance for 2018-19 was just under 2000.

Average Scottish Tier 3 attendance for 2018-19 was 753. Tier 2 average was 3,120 (English Tier 4 is higher at 4,468).

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

So how about this?

Premiership - 12 teams
Championship - 12 teams
League  1 - 16 teams
Regionalised (16/16/16)

40 SPFL clubs instead of current 42.  Every team has same chance of promotion it currently has, most Tier 4 teams are now Tier 3.  Tier 5 teams are now Tier 4, and have better chance of promotion than they currently have.  Also, 48 clubs 3 promotions away from the Premiership instead of the current 34 who are 2 play-offs and 4 promotions away.

What are the negative points?  Perhaps League 1 might object to playing only 30 matches - so make Championship and League 1 14 teams each, and play 39 game seasons, like they used to anyway.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

9 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I think you're totally missing the point here and making assumptions which just aren't valid.

Your point regarding the English Nation League proves the opposite of what you think: what was below the Football League prior to formation of the Alliance Premier, the precursor to the National League? There were three regionalised divisions. England has gone the opposite way, by going less regionalised and you're using it as an example!

Saying that attendances increase due to promotion is not an assumption - it's a fact.  Saying that the attendances are higher because the teams are playing nationally, on the other hand, is an assumption on your part.  Can you be sure that it's not just because they are playing in Tiers 3 and 4 instead of 5 or 6?

My point about the National League in England was not meant to be a direct comparison, but an example of how regionalisation can be a good thing.  In the end, England has actually gone more regionalised below the National League North and South, with 4 leagues instead of 3.  England can afford to be national in the top 5 Tiers though, as Tier 5 in England has higher attendances than Tier 3 in Scotland.  Oh, and attendances go up when teams are promoted also, even if it is to a regionalised league.

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

Absolutely. We're talking about a country where over three-fifths of the population live less than two hours away from each other. All of the 42 clubs have shown they can support playing nationally. All of them have significantly higher attendances, profits and profile (outwith a few outliers) than any outwith the SPFL.

We need a working pyramid system. Dumping half the SPFL into unwanted regional leagues is pointless in terms of attendances, travel and finances and is unnecessary and counterproductive.

Again, you can't talk about profile - leagues below Tier 4 don't get mentioned, but they had been kept out by the SPFL until recently. The attendances come with the level of football - there is a direct correspondence - attendances go down in each tier.

The pyramid includes the SPFL, and therefore, it must be prepared to change as well.  The pyramid is not just "everything below Tier 4".  As I've pointed out above, attendances are more likely to go up with more local matches, as evidenced by this year's attendance figures.  Travel would also be reduced.  Therefore finances would be better.  Also, you would have twice as many clubs at Tier 3 going for promotion to Tier 2 every year.  Why would you choose to play at Tier 4 if you could be at Tier 3?

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

3 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

It's not an unfair comparison! It's exactly what I've been saying! You play nationally and more people are interested.

Regionalising Leagues 1 and 2 and saying: "Ah, now Cowdenbeath are playing in the Scottish League Division 2 Central District, they'll pile in the fans because they're at Tier 3 not 4..." is ridiculous. Just because you say it's at that level, doesn't mean it's perceived as that.

But it's not playing nationally that interests more people - it's playing at a higher level (which just happens to be national).  If there was a League 1 North and League 1 South, teams promoted from the LL and HL would still get higher crowds - because they've moved up - NOT because they are playing nationally.

And of course, perception doesn't matter - if you're playing for promotion to the Championship, you are in Tier 3 - it doesn't matter what your perception is.  In England, do you think teams in National League North and South care that they are in a regionalised league?  They all want to get into the National League (Conference).  That's their goal at the start of the season - regionalisation allows twice as many clubs to aim for that goal every year.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Nonsense, i’d be far less likely to attend a game at Talbot than I would say at Spartans or Kelty. There is no ‘prestige’ draw for most outside the whole my village is better than your village stuff you see in some of the west leagues.
Can we get this notion that Scotland is some vast huge nation that can’t cope with national level football in the sea? Its smaller than Florida which has state level leagues in their sports at a level equivalent to spfl2 etc.

The US is a completely different level when it comes to marketing opportunities and sports coverage - even college sports get major TV coverage. You simply can't make a serious comparison.

The notion is not that Scotland is a "vast huge nation", but that other countries bigger than Scotland regionalise and don't have 4 national tiers.  It's not because they can't cope, it's because it's practical and sensible.

And the "my village is better than your village stuff" is from the bonehead fans or those who have lived in the town all their lives and don't know any better - the same ones who shout "you fat b*****d"and suchlike throughout games and shouldn't be allowed in in the first place.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

9 minutes ago, Enigma said:

 

 

In the current League 2, the average attendance between North teams was 802 and West teams was 532 (average division attendance 504). East average was only 439, but Berwick can't really be considered a derby for anyone.

In League 1, the average attendance in the matches between the 4 Angus teams was 955 (division average 753), while the average attendance in the 4 Fife derbies was 2052!

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

6 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

So moving to a regional league with a local game hurt their attendances? Isn't that the opposite of what you've been arguing for?

They didn't move to a regional league in the same tier, they were relegated. Their attendance was hurt by them moving down a Tier, and moving to a synthetic "Lowland" region - they would have had more fans in an East Premier League.  My point is that you can't compare attendances of teams from different tiers without considering the tier they play at.  You can't say only a few junior clubs would get better attendances than League 2 clubs, because it's an unfair comparison.

There is no question - if you regionalised the current Tiers 3 and 4 as they are, the average attendance across both leagues would go up.  Apart from teams who are doing well, the next best attendances are in the derby matches.  Having more of these means the attendance would go up, and having less distance to travel means more away fans.

You get more fans in general the higher tier you play at - by putting both the leagues at Tier 3, you should get an increase in attendance as well.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I am a Ross County fan. Derbies attract fans when they're not playing each other every week. Familiarity breeds contempt.

With regard to your point about the West Juniors, only a couple of clubs will pull in more than the average in League 2. This has been pointed out on multiple occasions.

Even in a regionalised setup, there wouldn't be too many "true" derbies.  Not every match in the West Juniors is a derby, yet the true derbies still attract more fans.  In the Highland League of old, Ross County v Huntly wasn't a derby...

A few clubs in the West would pull in more than the average in League 2, yes - but they are playing at a "lower" level.  Put the League 2 teams in Tier 5, and see what their attendances look like. (note: East Stirlingshire got only 145 for their match against Spartans in April, and these are both Top 6 teams in the Lowland League).

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

9 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Not everyone is attracted to games against the village next door etc, its one of the differences between the west juniors and spfl clubs.

Arbroath, Montrose, Brechin and Forfar would disagree with you, as would Raith/Dunfermline and Inverness CT/Ross County.  Funny how the derby games always attract more fans, but you just ignore that fact completely. 

One of the differences between the West Juniors and the SPFL clubs is that more people go to the West Juniors' matches because they can afford to travel and don't have to plan 300 mile round trips.  There's also bigger towns outside the SPFL than in it (Irvine v Brechin, for example), and therefore more potential fans.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

But shire and Berwick had off field standards to pay for like lights stewarding that auchinleck dont

True.  But progressive teams would also have these costs.  The point I was trying to make is that you can't base prestige on the level you play at, when it has been virtually guaranteed for the past 50 years.  Clubs outwith the SPFL haven't had any need for these things until recently, because they were shut out.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

You've just agreed to my point that the teams playing nationally are better known than those regionally. His is important when it comes to sponsorship (not just for clubs but for the leagues themselves).

I'd wager more have heard of Albion Rovers and Edinburgh City than Lithlithgow Rose and Auchinleck Talbot. However, were the former to be relegated and the latter promoted to the SPFL, I agree entirely that would change.

That's less about prestige and more about the Tier they are playing at.  I'd bet more have heard of League 1 teams than League 2 teams, and more still have heard of Championship teams and of course most have heard of Premiership teams.  The point is, the tier system is anachronistic and has preserved the "status" of many teams who wouldn't otherwise be playing at this level (East Stirlingshire for example, and Berwick this year and many years in the past, when they were consistently bottom or thereabouts).  Berwick don't deserve the prestige when they are less successful, and probably worse (playing-wise) than Auchinleck.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

1 minute ago, Robert James said:

I am told that Edinburgh City's attendances have increased significantly since they "went national" in the SPFL.

That's not a valid comparison - they are playing 1 tier up.  Most clubs' attendances go up when they are promoted.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

A working pyramid needs to have no bottleneck.  No play-off - automatic promotion/relegation.

If regionalisation is not wanted at Tier 4, so be it - Tier 5 should be split into 3 (North/East/West), but Tier 4 then needs to be prepared to lose 3 clubs each year.  Most league clubs obviously won't agree, and herein lies  the problem.  Clubs voting to preserve their league membership rather than for the good of Scottish football.  If you're not good enough to finish outside the bottom 3 in the SPFL, why should you be allowed to vote out more progressive (and frankly better) teams below you?

In order for Tier 4 to allow 3 teams to be relegated, Tier 4 needs to be a bigger division.  At least 14 clubs.  It's difficult to see how that's possible with the current 42 club league.  3 leagues of 14 would get rid of 1 tier (but probably would not be popular for the Premiership).  The 2 lower divisions were 14-team leagues through the 70s/80s/90s.

The solution is simple - divide everything below the SPFL into North/East and West, just like the juniors have been doing for years.  As the biggest nationwide governing body outside the SPFL, it makes sense to look at how they've been doing things.  The pyramid system is already in place within those 3 regions (Highland League/North Juniors in the North, West Juniors/South of Scotland League in the West, East of Scotland League/East Juniors in the East) - it's just a case of connecting them.

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

8 minutes ago, Jason King said:

And in any reality if you dont think that Albion Rovers are a more prestigious club than the likes of Linlithgow or Auchinleck then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. 

Prestigious only in that maybe people outside Scotland or non-football fans in Scotland have heard of them.  That's about it.  But that's only because they get shown on Final Score every week.  Is that prestige?

 

In real terms there is next-to-no prestige involved in Scottish lower league football.

 

In any case, prestige is fleeting - if Albion Rovers are relegated to the Lowland League next year,  and Linlithgow are promoted to it, it's all change.

 

I'd bet that Auchinleck Talbot is more well-known than Edinburgh City.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

4 minutes ago, Jason King said:

You might want to use a dictionary to see what prestige actually means.

I know what it means - my point is that it means nothing when we are talking about playing football, which is what this should all be about.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

1 minute ago, GNU_Linux said:

The SPFL isn't going to regionalize so it's pipedream stuff. The only change I could forsee is the divisions increasing in size thus contracting from 4 divisions to 3. Even that I don't see happening anytime soon.

But if there is no discussion of it, it definitely won't happen.  Just a few years ago, a promotion play-off to the SPFL was pipedream stuff as well - now it's reality.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

I'm sure there was prestige attached to those clubs who were senior in the East of Scotland League also, but the juniors have come in and shat all over that prestige.  Only 2 senior clubs were able to finish in the top half of the three 13-team conferences.  The top 5 in each of the 3 leagues had been junior the year before.  Prestige means nothing.

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

In that case then, why don't we regionalise at Level 2, or even 1, like Germany back in the day? Then everyone can play at the same level. Attendances and profits will be massive!

Seriously though, a Scottish League 1 North and South won't be as prestigious as a nationwide division. The clubs don't want regionalisation, the fans don't want it, why persist with trying to force it through? The priority should be a working pyramid below the SPFL first.

A working pyramid beneath the current SPFL is not possible due to the small size of the SPFL League 2, and trying to crowbar 3 regions (North/West/East) into 2 (Highland/Lowland).

There is too much of a bottleneck at the Tier 4/Tier 5 boundary.  There should be automatic promotion/relegation of 3 clubs per season between Tiers 4 and 5 (2 with the current half-pyramid).

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

It could be that only the Top 3 or 4 teams in each regional Tier 4 league could be eligible for prize money at the end of the season. The Tier 4 leagues would be like the current Lowland and Highland Leagues - which are managing fine last time I checked.

The thing is, there is money now to keep all the clubs in Scotland running.  This same money will be there next year.

Every other country in the world has a pyramid system. The reason Scotland doesn't is pig-headedness and a "can't do" attitude.

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

2 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

If you can't see how playing in a national league is more prestigious than a regional one, I'm not sure what I can say.

"Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Professional Football League..." v "Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Regional League Northeast..."

Ask any club who have moved from HFL to the SFL/SPFL if they'd return.

I think you're missing the point - the regional leagues would still be in the SPFL, so it would still be League 2 ,only it would be SPFL League 2 North, League 2 West, League 2 East.

Clubs wouldn't go back to HFL, because it's a step down the pyramid - so that's a different issue entirely.  It's not about prestige for them - it's about playing at the highest level possible.

 

 

[Pyramid 2019/2020]

It should be 3 regional divisions (With the geography of Scotland).

So, 3 national divisions (12-10-10)

3 regional divisions at Tier 4 (16 teams?)

Then regional below this (14 teams each, addressing previous concerns that 30 matches was too many)?