mcruic
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Posts posted by mcruic
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For God's sake it's the same teams in the same toons wi the same fans. It's fitba. You dinnae play a different game just cos you've got junior in the name. There is NO distinction except that in people's heads. What difference does it make if Bathgate play Whitburn in what remains of the east Juniors or if they play in the East of Scotland league? The "glory days" would have been the same or better if the clubs had been in a proper pyramid structure from the start. Auchinleck playing Ayr in the SPFL is surely better than Auchinleck v Darvel in the Ayrshire league.
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1 hour ago, AML67 said:
I’m guessing Bonnyton aren't too happy at the goalposts being moved in the WOSFL ! They’ve went from being geographically well placed to compete in a random Conference to being thrown into the deep end with the entire Super League. Pretty sure this wasn’t what they expected to get when they signed up and I’m sure others in the South that contemplated this move are relieved !
What will the other 50 applicants think of apparently being ‘shafted’ by the big boys in this new pathThey're an Ayrshire team. They will get to play other Ayrshire teams closer to them than the SOS teams. They will start in Tier 6, which is the same Tier they are in now. If it turns out they are relegated in their first season, then this just shows that SoSL is Tier 6 on paper only. And then Bonnyton will get to play local teams at tier 7 at their own level. Not seeing what the problem is or why they've been shafted. It's common knowledge that the WoS juniors is a higher level than the SoSL.
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On 24/04/2020 at 12:15, lowenan said:
Next season they will be at tier 6.
No they wont be.
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Kello Rovers could get an easier route to Tier 5 by joining the SoSL (at Tier 6) rather than the WoSL (at Tier 8). I reckon Kello would be one of the top teams in the SoSL. I don't have many Kello/SoS club results to go by, but before the 2018-19 season, Kello beat Abbey Vale 3-1 in a friendly. I think they also played Nithsdale in March 2019, but I don't have the score. Before the start of the 2019-20 season, Kello beat Abbey Vale 7-2. Kello played in the West Juniors 3rd tier (notionally Tier 8 in the new WoSL).
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Many of the problems of the current pyramid are caused by the following:
1) The structure of the SPFL (4 small divisions), with particularly a very small transition between SPFL and Tier 5 (League 2) of 10 teams, creating a bottleneck.
2) The structure of Tier 5, trying to fit teams into a lopsided 2-league structure instead of the more natural 3-leagues, as trialled by the Juniors for many years.A simple solution, which I've posted a detailed diagram of earlier, takes into account the following concerns:
1) SPFL clubs want to preserve a 42 team league.
2) SPFL clubs don't want regionalistaion of lower tiers.
3) Scotland has too many tiers for so few clubs (no other league in Europe has 4 national leagues, apart from England (with 10 x the population), which has 5).
4).
4) Tayside clubs don't appear to want to play in any "Highland" or "North" structure.
5) Smaller junior and amateur clubs essentially want to "stay where they are".
So, in my opinion, we're trying to build a pyramid on shaky foundations, and that's why it's taking so long to get off the ground.
Simple solution:
1) Get rid of one of the Tiers (Tiers 1-3 of 12-14-16 teams). This makes it easier for teams to progress through the leagues by cutting out an unnecessary level.
2) Make Tier 4 (now Tier 5) 3-pronged instead of 2-pronged (North/East/West).
3) Distribute all teams below Tier 4, maintaining current leagues if possible.
This allows a relatively evenly distributed number of teams among the North/East/West sections of the pyramid, and it allows all teams the option of not being promoted if they can't manage/don't want to. It also means a compact structure of 9 Tiers for all Scottish football, right down to amateur and welfare. If West Lothian teams don't want to progress, they can stay in a West Lothian League as a notional part of the pyramid, refusing promotion every year if they want to.
Precisely because I've positively addressed most of the problems that have been raised when I've discussed the subject previously (I've discussed it with SPFL club fans, junior fans, and senior non-league fans), my idea is clearly doomed to failure. A better solution would have been for me just to pull out some names from a tombola and throw them on the floor and see which leagues they end up in.
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Yes - let's hope most of the clubs can get themselves sorted sooner rather than later.
I'd like to see some effort to get the amateur leagues into some sort of a system also (with the opportunity to rise through a decent structure if they desire/are able, with preservation of most of the amateur leagues in their current form - so no real change except they'd be attached rather than detached).
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2 hours ago, Countryman said:
WOS = EOS = SOS = North Junior = NCL = Tayside Juniors
They are equivalent in the pyramid because the Greatest Grade on Earth had bosses what made a complete hash of everything, they let their sides down and failed to get their teams in at the highest level possibe, unlike the other leagues in Southern half of Scotland.
Leagues are where they are, there is no reason to change it. If any of the leagues that are in the equivalent position in the pyramid never have a strong enough side to be promoted, so what, it means the strongest teams from the equivalent leagues will be promoted to the highest level. It definately doesn't mean that that league has to be removed from having that opportunity, be that league be the WOS, EOS or SOS.
But the best way to move forward is surely to forget how much of a hash certain people made of things, and concentrate on having feeder leagues of roughly equal strength. Otherwise, you get situations where lots of good teams have to wait maybe 3 or 4 years to get to the level they should be at now (like in the EoS, where the influx of East Juniors means that several of the better teams will be stuck in the EoS for years when they are better than many teams in the Lowland League already), caused by unnatural bottlenecks at the top and bottom of these leagues. There should be 3 up 3 down to/from the Lowland League.
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2 hours ago, Dev said:
The point of any football or sporting pyramid, come to that, is to provide opportunity so that e.g. clubs and players etc are able to find their own level. If there is no viable alternative for clubs in the SoS and the NCL then they have to stay where they are geographically. This is not wealthy Suffolk you know where roads aren't so bad and where there's lots of affluent people who don't mind popping into London for a game!
Nobody is advocating them moving anywhere geographically. I'm saying they should stay as they are (same clubs), but should be at Tier 7, based on their playing strength.
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This thing about the South having kept a league going for years, lots of good people, etc. - the juniors (and amateurs and welfare) have done the same for their regions (many of which are rural), and for their towns and villages, and there are plenty of good people there too. Many of the clubs in juniors/amateurs are just as old or older than those in the SoS or the North Caley. Just because the league has nominally senior status, doesn't mean it needs preferential treatment.
The point of the Pyramid is that leagues will ultimately be balanced based on playing strength, and not on any historical nostalgia. The play-offs will not "sort that out" and teams will not "find their place", as the South of Scotland teams will be guaranteed Tier 6 status in perpetuum, even if many of the teams are worse than teams with Tier 7 status. It doesn't matter how poorly they perform, they are guaranteed to remain in Tier 6... Teams like Blantyre Vics, Arthurlie, Shotts Bon Accord, Neilston would be nominally Tier 7, while Creetown and Wigtown & Bladnoch have Tier 6 status. Any new teams joining the South region can therefore start off at Tier 6, no matter how rubbish they may be, while other regions may need to start at Tier 8. The South may deserve merit for keeping football going in the region for so long, but it doesn't merit having an easier route from the bottom of the pyramid than other regions.
The South wouldn't be being "pushed aside" . It would be being put in a realistic position based on the playing strength of its member clubs, and in any case, most of the teams would not be seeking promotion.
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Based on playing strength (as evidenced by many recent seasons in the Scottish Cup, and the South Challenge Cup), the SoSFL would certainly be the weakest of the 3 Lowland Tier 6 leagues.
Some of the EoS and WoS Tier 7 teams (and possibly even Tier 8 in the West) will be stronger than some of the Tier 6 SoS teams.
So, it might be a balanced pyramid geography wise in the Lowland area, but certainly not in terms of playing strength.
If playing strength were more of a factor, there would be 2 Tier 6 leagues (West and East), with Tier 7 West splitting into North (2nd tier West Juniors) and South (most of the current SoS).
This might actually work out better for the South team that chooses promotion, as they'll get more local games rather than going "semi-national" in the Lowland League. As an example, suppose Threave won the Tier 7 SoS, they would then go into the Tier 6 West league, where they might play the likes of Pollok, Kilwinning, etc. They'd find it mighty hard to get out of that league I think, but they'd get to play at a higher level with less travelling. The day-to-day for the SoS teams would be exactly the same, as they'd still be pretty much the same teams in the same league.
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Does anyone know why Auchterarder are named "Primrose"?
I note now that their nickname is "The Rose" and they sport a red rose on their club crest.
Primroses are traditionally light yellow (primrose yellow) and are not related to roses at all.
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12 hours ago, Pyramidic said:
The structure of the EOSL is as follows and HibeeJibee and the EOSL Committee are to be congratulated in coming up with an innovative and progessive format with a special mention for the two EOS Division 1 conferences that can be likened to the US Soccer Conferences.
When did Hawick Royal Albert become a United?
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On 22/05/2019 at 19:19, Spyro said:
A minor issue:
Coltness United don't exist any more - they became Newmains United - you have both in it.
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26 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:
why the rolling eyes? There's more chance of Belgium leaving the EU than there is of Berwick playing at Level 6 in England next season.
If it does happen, Montrose should definitely play their home games next year in the sea.
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13 minutes ago, honestman54 said:
Sounds good but at tier 5 I doubt the regionalisation would take place. Due to much including SFA blundering and self interest at tier 6 it is struggling to get off the ground.
Yes - it's the same old problem with junior clubs (wanting to remain junior - which means absolutely nothing, really) - and floodlights now being part of the licensing requirements.
But the way the pyramid is currently being built, the West of Scotland junior teams would have to join the East of Scotland League. If a certain number of WoS junior teams go senior, this would tip the balance in favour of a 3-way split at Tier 5.
I am fully aware this is all pie in the sky stuff at the moment because the people involved in making the decisions are not fit for purpose, and there are individual agendas rather than just getting a proper pyramid. Every other country in Europe has one, but here in Scotland everyone acts like it's something alien or complicated. What we have at the moment is a pyramid that is being built on incomplete foundations, and it's going to collapse at some point.Most times I have posted about the pyramid on this forum (in the juniors or East of Scotland section), it's like "not the pyramid again", or "that would never work" or "it will never happen". But most threads on the pyramid are just random and incoherent tit-for-tat, with no real concrete proposals about what it would/should actually look like, because "there are too many clubs" or "Scotland's geography is too complex", etc. etc.
Nonsense. The system I have designed below would work, and it would be better than what we have now. It allows teams to "opt out" of promotion (which in effect means they could opt out of the pyramid, while still being in it). There would be no negative consequences for any team, and most of the lower level teams would be playing pretty much the same teams they are playing now. Judging by some people's reactions, it's as if they imagine that joining the pyramid means playing Wick or Newton Stewart away every week.
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Given that SPFL clubs don't want regionalisation, I think it would be sensible to divide the clubs into 3 leagues instead of 4 (12-14-16?). Top tier as it is now, 2nd tier play each other 3 times each (as has happened previously - 39 game season), 3rd tier playing a 30-game season. It means only 2 promotions are required to reach the Premier instead of the current 3. It also freshens up the fixtures list a bit with more teams instead of playing the same 9 teams all season... If Tier 3 teams are concerned that 30 matches isn't enough, split the league and play an extra 7 each.
Below the SPFL, 3 regional leagues at Tier 5. Stop with this obsession with Highland/Lowland. There are 3 natural regions in Scotland in terms of clusters of clubs - and those are the divisions used by the juniors.
Tier 5 East/West/North would all have 16 clubs as well.
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There is simply no good reason not to adopt a pyramid system that includes all teams, right down to the amateurs. "The fans don't want it" or "the clubs don't want it" are not valid excuses if the fans or clubs don't have good reasons. I haven't seen any good reasons. Scotland is the only country in Europe without such a system, not because of "tradition", but because of obstinacy and refusal to change - just for the sake of it. Most, if not all, clubs, would be better off, would have to travel the same or less than now, and would know their place within a national system. They'd also be playing a set of teams very close to what they are already playing.
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My attempt:
Note - this includes all current senior, junior, amateur, welfare teams in existence in Scotland (around 1,060).
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17 minutes ago, parsforlife said:
Talk, but it’s seems to generally be pure mindless speculation. They seem to be acting as if they expect to be playing LL next season if they lose. Generally I think they view themselves in a Scottish context and the thought of moving FA’s is rather extreme for them.Their geographically appropriate Level 7 league (the Northern Premier) would involve much more travelling than they would expect in the Lowland League, as it includes clubs all the way down to North Norfolk. The only "local" league that might involve less travelling than the Lowland League would be the Northern League (its top tier is at Level 9 on the English pyramid, 4 levels below the "Conference").
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17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Happier?
Not sure this is entirely down to them moving into national leagues - the Tier 2 attendances also went up in this period (from around 15,000 to 17,000) with no change in league structure. But yes, the average attendance of the latter 3 clubs seem to have gone up quite a lot.
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1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:
If you can't see the problem, I can't help.
If we were designing a system from scratch, would we design the current one? No. But we're not. It's a system that's developed over the last century and more. You can't just wipe that away, however nice it is to draw a line on a map.
We have to be pragmatic. The principle of local amateur club being able to ascend to the heights of the Premiership (and vice versa) is easy. How we do it is not.
We have a convoluted system of grades with separate and non-interchangeable leagues. Only recently have things started to move. I'd argue that the tiers below the SPFL need to be in order first, before changing the structure of the SPFL is discussed. We're not quite there yet.
The Scottish League system has changed many times over the years, from 2 divisions, to 3, to 4. No wiping away, just continuing the tradition of change. The number of matches played, and the league system has also changed many times.
There is no drawing of any lines on a map - the lines are already there and being used. The only one that needs redrawn is the Tier 5 one - for historical reasons, as juniors weren't involved, there was no need for a West region - but with the current evolution, it looks likely that this will be necessary, otherwise the West clubs would have to join the East of Scotland League - which seems bizarre to me.
The only problem is the junior/senior divide. The East juniors last year showed how easy it was to overcome that by joining the EoS League.
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8 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Surprisingly enough no I didn't look at 20 years of fixture lists and a map of Germany. One of the reasons being the Top 20 best attended clubs doesn't equal the 20 teams that would make up the 3rd Tier.
See how there are a bunch of 4th Tier clubs with higher attendances than 3rd.
My point was - If you are selecting the Top 20 best attended clubs from across regional divisions, their attendance figures will be made up of matches against what would now be Tier 3 and Tier 4 clubs, so it's not a fair comparison. The 73 clubs at Tier 3 in the regional leagues, for example, do not equate to the 20 in the national Tier 3.
To put it another way - if you regionalised League 1 and 2 in Scotland, the regional leagues would probably have lower attendance than the current League 1 but higher than the current League 2 (because there would be League 2 clubs in there with smaller fan bases). So it wouldn't be fair to compare League 1 pre and post-nationalisation. "National wins" every time, but only because the comparison is not a fair one.0 -
4 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:
Because you've still given no reason why regionalising Leagues 1 and 2 in Scotland would benefit any club: SPFL or not. It's all been conjecture. Again, I point out the "follow the money" argument. If it was going to work, we'd already be doing it in the SPFL.
I'm not in disagreement with you about a pyramid, but you need to be pragmatic. We're not going to see three feeders any time soon. Only one Tier 5 club has ever been promoted (I'm aware of their handicap with playoffs). Give it time.
I'm not expecting it to happen overnight. But it has to happen with 3 feeder leagues sooner or later if a fully working pyramid is to happen. There are more than twice as many clubs in the "South" for a start.
I laid out a plan above that provides a benefit to all teams, or at least the same as they have now. All teams with the same chance of promotion or better than they have now. All SPFL clubs still in a national structure (no regionalisation), all "non-league" clubs still in a regionalised structure (but a more suitable one). Again - I don't see the problem.
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1 minute ago, craigkillie said:
The worst thing about the pyramid debate is the involvement of spreadsheet anoraks who see it as a completely emotionless game of "sort the teams". There's no actual interest in the clubs involved, no respect for history or sentiment, just a desperate desire to draw a bunch of lines on a map and then proclaim their way as the only way.
As soon as the people who actually care about the clubs involved chip in, they start to get defensive and chuck out meaningless comparisons around attendances and other leagues and whatnot.
Fortunately most of them get fed up fairly quickly and the threads stop getting polluted.I think you are mistaken. The worst thing is actually holier-than-thou "fans" who think that they know best just because they stand and watch a team every week. Nobody is proclaiming anything as the only way - we are offering suggestions for discussion. The lines are already on the map - otherwise the juniors wouldn't exist, and the senior non-leagues wouldn't exist either. Which anorak drew those lines I wonder?
The comparisons are not meaningless - they are countering claims made by those who claim to know because they follow the teams. A bit of factual evidence doesn't hurt anyone.
History or sentiment? No idea what you think that means - but some history and tradition is outdated. Those hanging on to the "but we are the juniors, we've always been the juniors" - this is just empty sentiment, as most decent clubs will leave and the juniors will be no better than the amateurs.
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our juniors next season bring it on
in Junior Football
Posted
Get rid of the highland and lowland leagues and replace them with West, East and North like the juniors had. Problem solved. OnE thing the juniors definitely did right was dividing the teams up in a sensible geographic way.