Arthurlie1981
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Posts posted by Arthurlie1981
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Wouldn’t that be a conflict of interest?
Why, they are still full members and can act accordingly.
I would be surprised if they did as currently (someone can correct me if I am wrong) represented in the SJFA management committee and have the president of the west region.0 -
I have to admit from a club level - certainly in the West - that's the way it appeared on the ground. I've said as much on here myself.
Whether the SJFA was attending the meetings and failing to communicate developments to the clubs I don't know, but there certainly was some kind of disconnect somewhere along the line.
The first I was aware of the proposals was maybe mid-late April of the season before the LL started when our club secretary showed me the questionnaire that had been sent round. Even then from memory it was couched in language that sounded odd - loads of "in principle" and so on.
At any rate, nobody was going to make a precipitate decision in that sort of timeframe. Whether that was the fault of the SJFA or the movers and shakers of the LL, I'm now not as sure as I previously was, but either way it was like getting an invite to a party on the other side of the city that starts in half an hour - you're not going to bother...
Agree with a lot of what you have said here. I feel that all west junior clubs (especially) have cast as villains here. I know for a fact that Arthurlie responded positively to all the questionnaires regarding the pyramid. I also believe 5/6 others did likewise. We asked for additional information to take to our membership before making a final decision on this, but didn’t receive any. When I contacted that SFA & SJFA I wasn’t given the information required and left with the distinct feeling that it had already had been decided that it would mainly be made up by EOSL clubs.
Some junior clubs have to stop living in the past. Change can be positive, you only have to look at the decline in crowds across many clubs (my own being a prime example) to see that change is needed. Times have changed and it’s time for the SJFA and (sadly) a large amount of junior clubs to change with it.
We need a WoSL to achieve parity and allow for a fully functional pyramid to be achieved.
Also some people from both sides of the argument should have a good look at themselves and stop acting like school children.
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Only if there's evidence to suggest clubs are interested. Which hasn't been the case.
You keep saying there isn’t interest. But clubs have not been properly consulted. If a full proposal is put forward (as wasn’t when clubs were asked to indicate if they wanted to be involved) then you might get a better idea of who wants involved and who doesn’t. I would be a massive supporter (as I have been in the past) for my club to be involved, but at the moment that opportunity doesn’t exist without taking on a significant financial risk.
I hope that there is some movement towards this either through working together or a separate WOS league proposal.
I agree that there needs to be a top down approach as I said earlier as there are too many agendas to get a consensus.0 -
“If these clubs are as ambitious as some on here would lead you to believe then why are they not leaving for the greener grass just now? I`ve no problem with ambition if that`s what you want to call it and clubs (office bearers, custodians etc ) can choose as they see fit but why the clamour to dismantle the junior grade (imperfect as it is and there`s already a thread running to cover it and how it could be improved) in the process. There`s a pathway there so why don`t they take it? If they are that confident then make the step/jump like Kelty already have. “
You’d have to ask the people in charge of their clubs that 1.
Timing, seeing how Kelty do, seeing if the SJFA can lead from the front and bring change, fear of being the loud kids in the class, fear of the unknown, who knows.
Dismantling the Junior grade? The only people that will ever be held responsible for that are the guys in charge of the SJFA, I’m afraid, no one else. The no sponsor for years for the Best Cup competition in Scotland outwith The Will Scot Cup is a massive sign to where they are at, Surely that’s 1 of the remits for the guys in charge so the grade is promoted to the best of their ability?
The SJFA should have served their clubs correctly and been at the fore front for any SFA Licencing and being part of a pyramid, clubs are now wisening up and now slowly questioning why they aren’t part of it and are on the outside looking in.
Can you tell me why the SJFA didn’t lead on the pyramid and make a real push to be part of it?
The results of the feedback forms that clubs filled in a few years as regards to the pyramid and improvements to the Junior grade were never published as far as I’m aware, they would be interesting to see.
I get being in charge of a grade or serving as an office bearer is mostly a thankless task and I have a level of sympathy for TJ and the guys leading the SJFA at times but the constant backward thinking that comes out is not half making things even more difficult for them. Their remit is surely to do the best for their associated clubs, if doing their best was to ignore the pyramid and SJFA clubs being refused an SFA licence then that will be the downfall.
There was a claim made at the time that no West club indicated that they were interested in joining the pyramid and I know that was incorrect as I believe there were 3 maybe 4 clubs that had said they would be interested at that time. There was no proper consultation from either the SJFA or SFA.0 -
I suspect 2018 will bring about significant change, but it will involve Junior clubs having to jump ship rather than integrate with the Pyramid in an orderly manner.
The WoSFL is a solid idea and the SJFA should engage positively with it, but then again who knows, the SJFA doesn't consult its members. Clubs should be up in arms at this.
What is the WoSFL idea though? The available information is lacking in content. I do agree though the SJFA should be consulting its members. There needs to be open and honest discussion between all interested parties. I honestly think a neutral party would be best to drive this forward but I don’t think any of the parties currently involved are neutral and there are plenty of agendas on show.
I hope for clubs sake that this is sorted to a satisfactory outcome for all.1 -
Arthurlie fans on here raging that their team wasn't contacted.[emoji4]
I’m certainly not raging gogsy. I have asked some questions about how this has come about, clubs that have been invited etc and have yet to receive proper answers to these basic questions.
IMO all west region clubs should have been contacted. It would be up to these clubs and their members to decide what to do. IF they had then I think all of these issues that I raised would of been answered. If my club are part of it or not would be a members decision but to preclude clubs from discussions doesn’t foster a good work arrangement going forward.1 -
It seems that whatever answer I give will be taken the way the recipient wants. Let’s see what happens in the coming month.
I can assure you I have no agenda. But when you cannot answer a simple question about which clubs were contacted and those that were not and the reason for that then is it any wonder clubs have questions. I am not involved at Arthurlie in any way other than being a fan but as a supporter and having previously been club secretary I am quite astonished how you have gone about this.
To have only discussed this with certain clubs certainly makes it look like it will be a closed shop. I take your word it won’t be a closed shop but you must see why it look like it is.
As I have said before I am for a fully functional pyramid but I can’t help be sceptical with how BSC have gone about their proposal.
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But the email doesn't invite clubs to any 5th January meeting, that's between representatives of the LL and the SJFA isn't it? And some leading West Junior clubs didn't even receive the email (although they will presumably by now have become aware of it by indirect means).
Furthermore, the email was only sent on the 21st December, few clubs will have had a committee meeting to even discuss the idea until this coming week at the earliest - is this going to be a re-run of the rushed "consultation" before the LL was formed?
Agree with all of this.0 -
In answer to your question, it’s not a closed shop. The result of the meeting in the 5th will go a long way to determining which clubs will want to take part.
Happy New Year to you.
Thank you for the best wishes and same to you. But you haven’t answered my question. Which Junior clubs were contacted and not all of them? Again if only certain junior clubs were contacted why were those clubs chosen?
Going by the article Kilwinning were one of the clubs contacted, why them and not others?
As I said before I fully believe all levels should be integrated but this seems a divide & conquer strategy from BSC.3 -
This part is interesting as it seems that a number of clubs were unaware of the proposal. It would help if this question was answered.
Looks like it won’t be answered. If BSC are serious then ALL junior club should of been contacted. Their email looks thoroughly unprofessional (the excuse that it’s not been proof read is poor). I again ask the question, which junior clubs were contacted and if only specific clubs were contacted why were those clubs selected. Is BSC idea going to be a closed shop, if so then why not say it.
As the old saying goes, there are more questions than answers.4 -
Serious question for anyone from BSC. Would you still be putting forward this proposal if you had been accepted into the juniors? My reason for asking is to work out if this is not an attempt by some at BSC to undermine those who made the decision not to accept them.
Also could they provide details of the clubs that they contacted with this proposal?
Edited to add: I am all for a proposal to be put forward but the email that has been sent out should of contained more detail of what the proposal would be. I do believe that a proper fully functional pyramid is the way forward but I’m not sure this is as it is very light in detail. For BSC to make it public puts junior clubs in an awkward position as fans will want clubs to consult but at the moment there is nothing to really discuss as no firm proposal is yet available. It reminds me of the original SFA question on the lowland league which wanted a commitment without any detail.
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He must have had an understanding. He's on the same board as Tom J. Their offices are in close proximity. He knows enough about Kelty. It's no longer a time to look back. Someone needs to get a grip and set out how it moves forward. And God help us if it's one of those committee outcomes where the end result tries to meet every vestige of self interest.
I agree it is not the time to look back, I was referring to an individual post and I was referring to Mr Regan at that point in time.
I agree it’s time to put self interest aside & do what is right, but that is very much easier said than done when there are many clubs who are not interested in the pyramid. I think the clubs who are, are going to have to break away imo.0 -
Its not full circle though is it - the fact remains that there is a LL with teams in it who managed to engage with the process. Junior clubs didn't and whilst there is some blame lying at the feet of the SJFA there is also equal culpability with the clubs. Tom Johnston is a great bogeyman for the Junior game - "its all the fault of the SJFA" is the continual cry and its a complete nonsense. Do you think Manchester United are sitting waiting to see if a full European Superleague will be introduced or Derby County are sitting waiting for the EFL to tell them everything? Of course they aren't but Junior clubs and junior club supporters just throw it out on a repeated basis to excuse having to make any sort of innovative decision for this level. They/We have been blinded by the arrant nonsense that somehow Junior football is different from the senior leagues.
NEWSFLASH - it isn't, its still football. Benburb play the same game as BSC Glasgow who play the same game as Arbroath who play the same game as Celtic who play the same game as Huddersfield Town who play the same game as Manchester City who play the same game as PSG who play the same game as Vale of Leven. The level doesn't matter to most people except those seemingly stuck in a 1950s timewarp and crowds of thousands at every game and 60000 or so at the Junior Cup final.
Those days are gone.
They aren't coming back.
Clubs who have been happy to stagnate, and yes I include the Bens in that, and who couldn't see the bigger picture coming have been bypassed by the likes of EduSport and East Kilbride and to me this is mainly down to their own short-sightedness and their cupidity for competitions that are dwarfed by the rewards potentially on offer in the pyramid.
I can certainly talk for my club as I was involved with the discussions at the time. It’s no where near as straight forward as you claim it was. The SFA presented a yes/no question to the clubs with no firm proposal of what was happening while gladly talking to the EoSL & HFL in a more in-depth way. Clubs were not provided with the level of detail they required and were not given a proper length of time to discuss with members who required more information.
The SFA wanted a quick and easy pyramid (nothing wrong with that) and imo chose the east, south and highland leagues to do that.
On another note we actually answered yes to the question about if we were interested in joining the pyramid. But received no further information from the SFA. If they really wanted junior clubs they certainly didn’t act like it. I think Mr Regan had no real understanding of the non league set up in Scotland and picked the 3 senior leagues.
There is blame on both the SFA & SJFA but the clubs were left in limbo and had to make decisions without the proper information.8 -
The SFA is an Association of clubs, not an Authority.
If the clubs want change they need to initiate it themselves, based on what's best for them.
If the 16 West Region Super League clubs want to join the pyramid and all the benefits it would bring, they could each apply for a license and more or less create the same league they're in now.
The obvious difference being that before a ball is kicked each season they'd receive their SFA payment and would have participation in the Scottish Cup to look forward to.
And a fixture list.
Same principle applies to East Region clubs.
Yes they are but the SFA put forward proposals at the AGM one of which could add a new "west league".
I disagree that the clubs could just get a licence and create a new league. This was never offered to the clubs at the time we had to register our interest. We asked for clarification but none was forthcoming. Unless the SFA were to say we are going to create a west version of the east of Scotland league then why would clubs take the risk. The licence money would be great but the loss of gate income for some clubs would negate this.0 -
There does seem to be less appetite for it in the short term anyway from the west coast teams. Burnie mentioned earlier the SJFA is heavily influenced and made up of west coast people. Perhaps they are quite happy that the west coast might be unaffected by whats going on and aren't really fussed about what happens in the East which would explain why they aren't being proactive.
It's nothing to do with that at all imo. For west clubs to apply they have to go to either the SOS or the EOS. The cost of this would be horrendous plus the loss of income if joining either of these leagues. The SFA have the power to end this debate by just implementing the pyramid across the board, but they won't do that and it will always be more east centric.
I can't comment on the ins and out what the EOS league did or didn't do. All I know was that there was no encouragement from either the SFA or the SJFA.
Unless the SFA wants it to change nothing will.
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Well said. As things stand, the only area of the country the pyramid is actually functional is in the East - up north, the Highland League seem to have got what they wanted and then pulled up the ladder behind them; the likes of Banks O'Dee or Hermes would be strong additions...perhaps too strong for some of the perennial also-rans in the lower half of the HFL.
In the West where over half the population of the country lives the current pathway is completely unworkable; a club wishing to make the jump would have to spend at least a year travelling down the A74 to compete on the (mostly) school playing fields and 3G cages of the SoSL, where the entirely Dumfries and Galloway-based rump of current clubs are already unhappy at the moment at the prospect of having to travel to Kilmarnock to play their newest member. There's no way you can argue that wouldn't be a serious step down for the likes of a Talbot or whoever.
A lot of Junior fans fall into one of two camps - there are some that think the Juniors have an almost mystical air of specialness, somehow inherently purer, set apart from the rest of the game and which shouldn't be exposed to any outside influence, whereas others fall into the John Laurie "we're doomed..." mindset forecasting the imminent collapse of the entire grade if something isn't done sharpish.
I reckon the truth's somewhere in the middle - sure some clubs are struggling, but that always has and probably always will be the case. In general, the grade's in reasonable health and most clubs can afford to adopt a watching brief to see how - and indeed if - the pyramid develops in a way that will suit their purposes.
Ultimately, no club will willingly throw itself under the bus for the sake of an ideal - to genuinely prosper the structure will have to suit the clubs, not vice versa.
I don't think the grade is under imminent danger but without improvements I can see some clubs dropping out in the future and that will hurt junior football. What I am looking for is some forward planning to allow the grade to grow. I don't necessarily believe the LL is the best answer but we need to make sure that we (juniors) are not left behind.0 -
I half agree with you but from my insider contacts it seems Regan was like many other English imports.
He 1) didn't really understand the concept of the Juniors and their impact on the culture here, and 2) Thought a quick fix English solution was easy and we were just all a bit slow/thick up here.
I agree with that but the way that the junior clubs (at least in the west) was a one question letter saying are you interested in joining a pyramid. We responded yes and heard nothing back. I spoke to Jim Spence when he was at the BBC and gave my views and our clubs views on it and also that discussed several issues that we saw as being a barrier. I took some flak from both the SJFA and SFA for expressing these concerns.
The way it was put together never allowed clubs from the west a fair crack at it imo but the clubs have to take some responsibility for it.
I am no longer involved but can only hope that clubs can work together to improve the grade.0 -
It's back to the chicken-n-egg again though.
If the Juniors won't join the pyramid, it's reliant on seniors + whoever is prepared to move in from other grades, and it'll be easier to "do an Edusport".
It's in the hands of the SFA as they could force junior clubs to join the pyramid. They caused this issue when creating the LL. Mr Regan wanted a pyramid but didn't really want to put in the work. Now we have a half finished product. I have no problems with any of the clubs in the LL as they are there with the current arrangements but if improvements are wanted then discussions should be had with clubs directly and not the SJFA. The ball is in the SFA court. Very few to no west junior clubs will leave to join the SoS or EoS as the costs are too much meaning there will be an imbalance in the set up. Imo Mr Regan thinks he has fulfilled his commitment and now really doesn't care about it and the LL officials are quite happy with what they have as they represent the clubs already there. It will not grow imo without proper alignment. The only people who can sort that is the SFA.1 -
There needs to be a substantial discussion with clubs about what they want the future to be. There is a lot of conjecture but not a lot of discussion about what direction the clubs want. Unless the SJFA management committee start a proper discussion with clubs, Kelty will not be the last club to leave and in fact if the Lowland League West idea takes off then there is the potential that west region clubs will upsticks and leave.
I agree that we need to find a way to get new blood onto committee and into fan bases but many clubs need to do a better job interacting with their communities. The SJFA should be helping clubs do this. They can help clubs better interact with local authorities, provide support to the clubs to help them achieve their goals. At the moment the question has to be asked with clubs putting money into the SJFA what do clubs receive in return.
I recommend that Arthurlie start looking into club licensing several year ago but due to a lack of available funding found it was a non starter but for clubs who can or have reached the criteria set forward it may become more appealing to clubs to move across, especially if Kelty are successful.
Junior football must adapt or die and for me there are several key issues:
1. Improve stadium and ground (including funding support of some variety)
2. Undertake review of kick off times and standardise them across the 3 regions
3. Replicate structures across 3 regions (where possible)
4. Assist clubs to work with other local youth teams to create community clubs
5. Fixture lists and better structure of the season
6. Bring in "junior" club licensing
At the end of the day the clubs dictate the direction of the SJFA and the regions and the clubs must get together away from management committees and agree a way forward and then provide a united front at Agms etc to drive through change hence doing away with the divide and conquer approach that is sometimes used at meetings. A good example of this is the work done by the clubs on the restructuring plan for the the west region. Sorry for the long post folks and hope it makes some sense.0 -
Agree re ref. Thought his overall performance after the 2nd disallowed Ulster try (which he got wrong) was terrible. He made every attempt to make up for that call. The penalty try was a terrible decision. He missed a blatant late/high tackle which should of been a yellow & another yellow when Ulster cynically kicked the ball out the ruck 10 meters from the line. Ian Davies is a horrible ref.
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Still haven't come down from the high of Finn's conversation. Well done Glasgow let's win it for Big Al next week.
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Just started to calm down after that. Best atmosphere ever at a Glasgow game. I have been going since the Caly Reds days, was there on the first night of the Celtic League, the dire days of Kiwi Seranke & never did I think I would see Glasgow make it to the finals. Really proud. The fans were excellent & only time I have celebrated more at full time was in 98 when Lie won the Scottish.
Let's go win it now either at the Aviva or wherever in Glasgow.
Well done to Big Al & the boys.
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Double post.
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to be fair the italians spent the entire second half offside and were lucky to be leading at the end. thought we did enoigh to win and got a well deserved victory
Having watched Leighton Hodges ref a lot of Glasgow games I'm not surprised The guy is clueless. I was shocked when I found out he was refereeing the game.
Even Bobby Skinstad was struggling to understand his decisions.
Was again impressed with Scott & Dunbar & was glad to see big Stroker get the wining try.
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Junior football, what is the future?
in Junior Football
Posted
I am wondering if it is a shot across the bows of any clubs wanting to leave next season. I wonder if there will a new rule written in this year. If I was running a west club and was thinking of leaving I would be immediately resigning and work with other like minded clubs to make sure a working west league is in place for 19/20.
It is very poor form for the SJFA to be thinking along these lines and it’s time for clubs to move away from an association who threatens there members.