welshbairn
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Posts posted by welshbairn
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One fun thing is that after Rangers fans celebrating over their cornflakes this morning that a pay deal had been done and the club was saved, no deal has happened ..
Still potential for Duffman to go nuclear, hopefully....0 -
The money from Ticketus to Whyte was initially put into an escrow account. (3rd party, inaccessible to Whyte) This means they didnt give him the money prior to him buying the club. He couldn't have transferred a penny out of that account until they got their security, but crucially he could use it to show proof of funds to Murray, before giving him his £1, and becoming the owner of Rangers, and thus the rights to their future season tickets. Then, he handed over the tickets (meaning they are good if the club continues in its present incarnation) in exchange for the £24m
Looks kosher. Oh dearie me.
Sounds convincing, but source?
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Away for a day and the thread grows 30-odd pages!!
From today's paper I gather that the SFA have bulleted Whyte but delayed on the 2nd-contract thing... administrators confident of pay-cut deal and want to accelerate process of finding a buyer... non-OF clubs to meet about diluting the voting threshold (but not too much) and smoothing the prizemoney allocation.
Those items aside, has anything tangible - as opposed to rumourmill - happened?
A couple of Rangers players have accepted wage cuts but negotiations are still going on. Rangers fans are celebrating this, not sure why. Think that's about it.
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The view that the Ticketus deal is nothing to do with Rangers is undermined by the legal action the administrators are taking to recover the balance of the monies paid which currently reside in a bank account belonging to Whyte's solicitors. If the ticket deal is nothing to do with Rangers then neither are those funds.
The money in the account is Craig Whyte's, however he aquired it. Duff and Phelps accuse Whyte of owing Rangers lots of money, including the £5 million he promised annually as part of his purchase agreement. That's what they'll be arguing in court. It doesn't imply any obligation from Rangers to Ticketus.
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So That would mean they would be propping up division 3
That's my dream senario. Rangers lose all points for fielding improperly registered players and are thus demoted on footballing reasons to Div 1, ie they've got the least points in the SPL. The SFL with their much greater powers of sanctions over financial misbehaviour relegate them to Div 3. Chick Young and Doncaster's wet dream of debt free Newco Rangers getting invited straight back into the SPL gets blown out of the water..
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Anyone curious why Mad Vlad has not been joining in the grave dancing and has indeed been uncharacteristicly quiet about how slow the HMRC have been in chasing up Rangers PAYE and VAT shennanigans? This might explain, nicked from RTC..
However, Ogilvie seems likely to find himself in the unique position of being at the center of yet another tax avoidance/evasion storm. On leaving Rangers in 2005, Ogilvie joined the board of Heart of Midlothian FC, and in 2008 became managing director of the Edinburgh club. A source has contacted me with the story that the Scottish Professional Footballers Association (SPFA) has made a complaint about employment practices at Hearts. This came to light when a Hearts player applied for a mortgage. When presenting his salary advice, it was clear that he was on a rate close to the UK minimum wage. The player naively explained that he had lots of money, but that it was all paid overseas. The SPFA would obviously have concerns that Scottish players will appear expensive in an era of 50% marginal tax rates compared to low-tax (or no-tax?) foreign players. This raises a few questions: How many players are involved? How long have such practices been in effect? Are there players who have not been registered for tax at all in the UK? The scale of the Hearts problem is not yet fully known. If this has been standard practice over an extended number of years, then the bills, interest, and penalties could also be of a magnitude that could put the existence of Hearts at risk unless Mr. Romanov decides to dig deep into his personal reserves.0 -
I doubt Lloyds have anything to worry about. Their only duty is to report the transaction to comply with money laundering rules. If someone buys my house with dodgy money, the house might be confiscated but I get to keep the cash, in the same way that Lloyds sold their asset, the £18 million debt. Ticketus will have to chase Whyte and/or Rangers for the money.
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Craig Whyte sold off four years of Rangers season tickets — one month before he bought the club.
The embattled owner flogged the seats to London-based Ticketus to fund his entire takeover last April — four weeks before he persuaded Sir David Murray to sell up for just £1.
Sportsmail can reveal Whyte convinced Ticketus to advance him £24.4million on the proviso that he would then buy Rangers. That cash was deposited into a client account with his London-based lawyer Collyer Bristow on April 7.
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No, was it not that he did own Rangers. He supplied "proof" of a sum of money, resting in an account, which allowed him to take over the club, for £1.
Murzo, and everyone else assumed this was the money he was going to use to clear the bank debt, but he didn't. It was paper money that quietly disappeared once he got his feet under the table. He repaid Lloyds with the "new" money.
He was Rangers owner when the deal was signed with Ticketus. I'm certain of that.
It's been claimed that the Ticketus money went into his account at Collyer Bristow a month before he bought the club.
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Could the HMRC go after them all for unpaid taxes over the EBT thing?
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Can anyone explain the use of this cut in wages to me? Can't help thinking the administrators are playing a blinder here.
If the players all take the supposed cuts for 3 months to save £1million each month, and the club either reaches a cva or goes into liquidation and the players get TUPE'd over, then their contracts must be honoured.
Surely than means, either way, that the existing club will once again be short by about £1million per month?
Would they still qualify under the TUPE rules if the club goes into liquidation? I thought in Scotland they would be treated the same as ordinary creditors..
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Scotland Tonight seems to be about the problems shouty women have today..
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When I heard earlier about the other ten meeting, I was initially encouraged.
The more I think about it though, it's maybe depressing. While noises about them exploiting this chance to instigate change sound good, to me it suggests that the decision to admit a Newco is virtually made.
The BBC report also mentioned SPL 2 again. My fear is that the other SPL clubs will not so much be looking to make Scottish football better, but will look to make their own positions stronger and more secure, not just in relation to the monsters above them, but in relation to the clubs beneath them.
This is a chance to scrap the whole idea of the SPL and SFL as separate bodies. I don't see any prospect of that happening though.
Revolutionary stuff...
"The distribution of income, a 12-club SPL and a 10-club top league below that, with more income for the clubs below, will all be discussed.0 -
This is the article of the SPL rules that Chick quotes as proof that only the SPL board would get to vote on admitting Newco Gers .
11. Except where such transfer is occasioned by the promotion of an associationfootball club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL the consent of the
Board shall be required before the transfer of any Share shall be registered.
There's loads of stuff in other articles that indicate a full vote by the membership would be required with an 83 or 90% majority before the board could act, but assuming he and his pal Doncaster are right, I wonder if Dunfermline could demand a full vote of members on the issue, under this article:
38. A Special Qualified Resolution, (83%) shall be required for the passing of aresolution in respect of the following Reserved Matters:-
(i) any expansion of the League by the addition or admission of new
Members (other than as a result of the operation of the Rules
governing promotion/relegation between the League and the SFL);
(ii) any reduction in the number of Members of the Scottish Premier
League (other than as a result of a Member ceasing to be a Member
of the Scottish Premier League in accordance with the Rules and/or
these Articles or as a consequence of the expulsion of a Member);
and,
(iii) the allotment and the issue of a Share.
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Traynor and Young saying that things just keep getting worse for Rangers, pontificating about potential buyers, administration, liquidation etc etc, then both smugly say....but we know that Rangers will definately be playing in the SPL next season. Pretty much confirming what most of us believe anyway, but it does beg the question, how do they know this for sure?
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Sky at Night about to start on BBC4. Help show the world what a dick Chick Young is, tune in now!
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Don't know if been mentioned. Now they have said that cw isn't fit and proper and all the other crap. Could they get relegated to 1st division by default which will then give the association which chick et al claimed wasn't in place that would be required to punt them to division 3?
Don't see why not. If they've been found to be acting against the rules this season, akin to fielding ineligible players, all points gained should be deducted and they would be relegated for football reasons ie they'd have the least points. Then the much more flexible SFL rules could send them down to Div 3 and deduct 100 pts a season for the next 10 years. It's only fair..
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From Stewart Regan's Twitter:
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@StewartRegan Should the SPL relegate Dunfermline or deny promotion to Ross County to allow a Rangers Newco into the SPL?
Stewart M. Regan @StewartRegan @Jamester76 That's hypothetical. Too early to comment.
Hide conversation 7:12 AM - 8 Mar 12 via Twitter for iPad · Details
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@StewartRegan @jamester76 you will never get a simple answer to a simple question, Regan is a snake oil salesman.
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Chick's summing up:
...without Old Firm matches, the Scottish game is about as showbiz as The Sky at Night.Spoken like a true St Mirren man
Brilliant, my favourite programme!
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I think Regan was actually quoted saying something along the lines of we can't expect them to check everyone. I'll look for the exact quote.
He said in the Tuesday night debate that they can't be expected to check every time there's a change of director..
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Wonder if this could happen. Rangers say they're unable to complete fixtures. Finish on -10 points. They lay off nearly all players and staff. Negotiate a CVA and come out of Administration with new owners. Demoted for football reasons to Div1, ie less points than anyone else. Assemble a youth squad and a) Play in Div 1 next season or b)The SFL has the power to demote them to Div 3 or deduct 25+ points because they've just come out of administration, despite the fact it occured in the SPL..
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Hearts and Dundee United fans take note:
How phoenix company fraud affects creditors of a failed companyOnce a company enters insolvency or liquidation proceedings, the creditors will be paid
in order of priority from whatever remaining company funds are made available.
As a trade creditor, it is likely that you will receive only a small proportion of the money
you are owed. Clearly, this may result in serious financial loss
and have a direct impact on your company’s ability to keep trading and stay solvent.
Additionally, business confidence in your company may suffer, your customer base
might shrink and your suppliers may impose less favourable payment terms on you.
This will impact on your cash flow and, again, adversely affect your company’s ability to
stay solvent.
What you should do
If you have a claim or an outstanding complaint against the failed company, do not give
up on it.
• Be persistent. You should not be put off if the phoenix company claims the failed
company’s liabilities are not theirs when both companies appear to be the same
• Take your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service if you are not satisfied with
their answers (http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk)
• Tell the Financial Services Authority (FSA) about it (http://www.fsa.gov.uk). It
cannot help with individual disputes between you and the phoenix company, but
the generic problem of phoenix companies is a priority for the FSA.
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I can't help thinking along these lines. And surely SDM was involved, at least in the planning stages - a businessman along the lines of murrays experience must have known exactly what type of shady character he was dealing with in whyte, and given the enormous sum involved in the big tax case then I'd think this could be seen as an acceptable way out.
I don't, however, think that D Murray knew that Whyte was then going to use the ticketus money to pay off the bank debt, or that he was going to stop paying hmrc the tax and NI as soon as he took control.
Given that Whyte has been involved in over 20 administrations/liquidations in the past I can't believe this wasn't planned in some way.
I don't think Murray had any choice. The Rangers debt to Lloyds was a tiny fraction of Murray Group's total debt of around £800million, and one Lloyds wanted rid of because of the bad PR. They had him by the short hairs. I'm sure it was a huge relief to him to get rid of it though..
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Currently the director and major shareholder of nearly 50.
However you can tell me how it works if you like?
Mr Whyte? Are they all solvent?
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Still potential for Duffman to go nuclear, hopefully....
Joe 
Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!
in Celtic v Rangers, Rangers v Celtic
Posted
Was the first bit just guesswork then?