Tartan Blood

Exactly. Chelsea are filled with elite internationals. The exact types we'll be up against at the Euros. If Klopp trusts him, that's good enough for me. And hopefully Steve Clarke. There should be a new squad announcement in the next week or so. I would understand if Clarke didn't pick him, but I wouldn't agree with it.

I'm basing what I said partly on his age. At 17, he's very much still learning his trade. So being understudy to Salah will be invaluable. It'll definitely help him in his decision making. Once he is a bit older, say, 19, and not getting a game, then a loan move will be more beneficial. Callum McGregor was about that age when he went on loan. As was Billy Gilmour at Norwich. Everyone takes different paths in their career. So it's hard to say which method works the best. It's probably more about the individual. People develop at different speeds and in different ways. Other than becoming a first 11 player for Liverpool at 19, the ideal scenario would be for him to be out on loan to another EPL team.

Yeah, being reguarly subbed on for a team like Liverpool is impressive at any age. You could argue that shows a higher level than getting in the first 11 for a team like Luton or Sheffield Utd. (Jacob Brown, McBurnie, Fleck) Obviously you can't underestimate the value of playing 90mins every week, but, at 17, making cameos for Liverpool and training with world class players is far more beneficial than going on loan to a lower level. Especially having Salah as your mentor and the Scotland captain there to keep you grounded.

Based on the fact he wasn't one of the players called up from the u21s in June, probably means he isn't quite on the verge of a call up. September will almost certainly be too soon. Beyond that, I'd say 3 or 4 sub appearances in the EPL and some starts in cup competitions should be more than enough to get into the squad. Gilmour and Patterson hadn't done much more than that when they got called up.

I really don't think technique or ability is the issue. As you say, he has already demonstrated that at lower levels. It's clearly a lack of experience, probably as well as knowing the cameras are on him. He'll get over that. Especially if Liverpool employ sports psychologists, which I assume they do. Very few of the best players in the world made good decisions when they were 17. I seem to recall Cristiano was criticised a lot for that when he first signed for Man U. I genuinely think he's going to have made a significant impact for Scotland before he is 19. What a weapon he will be as a sub, initially.

Didn't watch it but I read he won a free kick and a corner. Plus made some tackles. Most twitter feedback seems to be positive. (In comparison to every other player) However, this really wasn't an ideal time for him to come on. Liverpool horsing a team 3-0 and bringing him on the last 20mins would be far better. A little unfair on him today.

That was my initial instinct, but then I thought maybe he might have just been a blinkered Celtic fan. It's actually kind of sad that Forrest is one of very few examples of Scottish wingers having a decent career in the last decade.

If he can emulate Forrest, he'll have a successful career. However, I don't think Forrest was anywhere near the level Doak currently is when he was 17/18. In fact, the Celtic fans very often voiced their frustration at Forrest until he was in his early 20s and beyond. Doak looks more skillful and far less rigid than Forrest. No disrespect to Forrest, who should have had a much more lucrative Scotland career than he did. Forrest never quite reached the next level that a lot of us thought he might. Doak's potential is massive.

Sorry, I was making a joke since you'd mentioned Football Manager in an earlier post. I should have chucked in an emoji. I'm sure you are not basing your belief that "Doak will never be as good as Endrich" on a video game. No doubt Real Madrid did their research. Likewise, I'm sure Liverpool did their research on Doak as well. I've not seen Endrich, but I think it's dangerous to fully predict a player's career before they're even out of their teens, regardless of how irresponsible Real Madrid are with their money. That being said, if we can be hyperbolic with Endrich, then why not Doak. Endrich will win the Ballon D'Or and Doak will come 2nd.

Yeah, that €60m buy out clause in Gauld's Sporting Lisbon contract, along with the Scottish Messi tag, certainly put undue pressure on him. Hopefully Doak can steer clear of that sort of hype. I wouldn't be too quick to be handing him a Scotland callup. But you never know. Certainly no harm in taking him along to join in the training to give Steve Clarke a glimpse of the future first hand. Celtic literally played him in an Old Firm match to try and convince him to stay. As far as I know that has never happened before. Possibly with the exception of Karamoko Dembele, but I don't think they were quite as desperate to keep him. That was more to make him feel appreciated(?). Dembele's stature will go against him, unfortunately. Doak has no ceiling that I can see.

Sorry to jump in, but I agree with you. Even if the other guy had somehow watched all 7(?) of Endrich's games, it still couldn't be conclusive that "Doak will never be as good as him". Entirely unknowable. I'm sure Endrich is shit hot in Football Manager though. If Doak was Brazilian, he'd be getting even more attention than he already is. He assisted and hit the post against AC Milan. He's been the most exciting player on the pitch in every age group he's played in. I'm long enough in the tooth to not get overly excited by potential, but this one does feel different. Even when Gauld was heralded as the Scottish Messi in his teens, that was still only for Dundee Utd in the SPFL. No disrespect, but that is very different to forcing your way onto Liverpool's bench at 16/17.

The Gilmour and Patterson *is* the PS model (both were both PS students). I don't know enough about the set-up to know if there is any clear yardstick of "this guy is going to make it to at least a level where he'll be useful at international level" or not. It'd be a brilliant - but maybe impossible - objective for the performance schools to have. Sorry, by "model" I was referring to how we call up players in general, not specifically because they were performance schoolers. If any 18/19 year old shows the abilities of, say, Patterson, then I think there is no reason to wait for him to be older. As someone else said, Doak did go to the Celtic version of a performance school. It's another good endorsement of the approach. It's something like an extra 800 hours of football per year and involves a lot more tactical awareness and psychology. Obviously there will be successes and failures, but essentially it is preparing these players to the highest possible standard. It means that they are mentally prepared for senior football, without necessarily needing the years of experience to go with it.

Well we could use the Gilmour and Patterson model. Neither were regulars for their clubs when they first got called up. However, their talent was just too high to ignore and it wasn't worth waiting for them to get more minutes. Doak just turned 17. I'd say it's almost certainly still too soon for him. But if he gets similar game time to what Gilmour got at Chelsea, I don't see why he shouldn't be fast-tracked to the seniors. Probably in a year or 2. Also, for every Islam Feruz and Calvin Miller, there is a Kieran Tierney and Aaron Hickey. Some of our youths do turn into stars.

If you had all of our forward players at their absolute best simultaneously, I do think Fraser would probably be first pick alongside McGinn. He is a player than can conjour up moments of magic. He's at the very least worth coming on as a sub.

It's definitely getting there. I was referring to circa 2001 when Celtic and Rangers had a maximum of 2 Scots per game. And the likes of Dundee and Hearts were riddled with foreigners as well. We're not quite that bad, yet, but it looks like it's just around the corner.

I should have said *young Scots. Allan McGregor has had plenty of game time. As I said in an earlier post, Patterson and Gilmour are products of the Performance Schools, so Rangers don't even get full credit for their development. Maybe I'm being too harsh, but it's hardly a coincidence.

It wasn't even really a dig at Patterson’s lack of game time. As you say, there are valid arguments for him not getting a game. I'm thinking more along the lines of releasing players like McRorie, Stewart, Middleton and a host of other young players before they've had a fair crack of the whip. And those that are still there, like Wright, Kelly and the other McRorie got so little game time. Instead, he continued to play guys that are in their mid-30s. I know Rangers won the league, but there was no thought whatsoever for the future.

I really think this thread should just be entitled 'Hickey'. Hepburn is still just a youth at Bayern Munich. It should be him and Morrison lumped together, not Hickey. I'd rather Hickey stayed away from Gerrard, with his track record of playing Scots at Rangers.

It'll undoubtedly help the national team. If they are given fair money for the Scottish players, great, and then are able to bring in European talent that England can't, even better. However, that does make me think we could see the return of Scottish teams riddled with foreign talent instead of Scottish. On the flip side, the standard of player may go up and might strengthen the SPFL. And if the best Scots are being nurtured in state of the art facilties down south, then that's a win-win.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think it'll appear to be a good deal for everyone involved. I'm just shocked it has happened. Hopefully this is a sign that Scotland will now be getting fair sums for their talents. Aberdeen and Hibs could point to this transfer when negotiating for Ramsay and Doig, for example. You'd have to assume Everton, along with most top teams will be doing more than just watching his highlights. They'll have assessed all his attributes and know they can turn him into a huge talent. The 5 and a half year deal certainly indicates he is someone they have a lot of faith in.

It's not surprising at all that the costs of players have gone up. It's surprising that Rangers are breaking transfer records for a youth player with very little experience. I'm not disagreeing with Rangers selling him for that amount of money. They'd be crazy to turn that down for someone that will have almost no impact on the first team. I'm just shocked Everton are willing to spend so much to get him. As someone below mentioned, the success of Robertson, Tierney and McGinn will have contributed to Premier League clubs being open to signing young Scots.

Isn't this literally going to break Rangers' transfer record? When that happens, it's usually the superstar in a team or one of the most important players. Tierney, Dembele, VVD, Wanyama had all played over 100 games for Celtic before going for big money. I think it's a reasonable argument to question why a bit-part Rangers youth is going for similar money to Virgil Van Dijk. That's not to say he's not worth the money. I think he is. But it seems the Everton scouts, and Steve Clarke, value him higher than the Rangers' management.

You make it sound like giving youth a chance is a burden. Imagine being able to play your best youths for a few years and doubling their value instead of letting them go at the first whiff of a profit. I genuinely think Patterson could go on to have a similar career trajectory to Tierney. The big difference being, Celtic got 3 solid years out of him and £25m. I'm sure right now it seems like great business, but in hindsight in a few years it probably won't.

It's not rubbish at all. The more songs to add to our catalogue the better. If it catches on, you know it's not bad. I'd switch "beer" to "Irn-Bru" though. Maybe change the last line to something funnier/self-deprecating. That is the Scottish way. I always think Celtic park has the best atmosphere because they have a whole library of songs to choose from. I'd love it if Scotland had more.

How on earth would you decide what is a "better" result? Goals scored? Away goals? Having that as an incentive could dramatically impact on a result. Say we were winning 1-0 in the 87th minute and we hear Wales are winning 2-1. Instead of doing the right thing and trying to protect our lead, we might go all out for another goal. By doing so, we leave ourselves exposed at the back and end up conceding a goal, that otherwise wouldn't have happened.